Sinnoh League, Ash vs Tobias, what would you choose?

[RLRL]

Ok it was a while back now, but after re-watching the sinnoh league, I'm furious, yet again, with how awful Ash's semi final match was.

Ash's team, in order

- Heracross
- Torkoal
- Gible
- Sceptile
- Swellow
- Pikachu

Tobias' team

- Darkrai
- Latios

Yeah I'll admit, the moment Latios came out of it's pokéball the first time I saw this episode, I was ridiculously shocked, happy, and excited. But ash had already lost so I knew we wouldn't see any more of tobias' pokémon.

What would you have chosen from all ash's available pokémon to use in that battle.

My personal choice would have been the following.

- Heracross
- Snorlax
- Charizard/Infernape
- Sceptile
- Gliscor
- Pikachu

I'll admit, using heracross first with it's sleep talk ability, typing, and other available super effective moves, heracross was a great idea, but torkoal was a bad choice for the second battle, which is a shame as I do like ash's torkoal, but would have never chosen it to face a darkrai.

Infernape/Charizard. I had to put both in, both final stage fire starters, obviously charizard's flight abilities greatly help, and infernape had just used blaze against paul, but I just feel like it was a total letdown not having either in battle. Would much rather seen Charizard, especially for a short charizard meets infernape scene, but alas, no such luck, and we got stuck with torkoal getting OHKOed.

Snorlax on the other hand would at least have some resistance to all the special attacks in darkrai's arsenal, and I'm sure could have at least taken a few more hits than gible and torkoal combined.

Gible was just a bad choice for throwing out so early, if ash'd thrown out sceptile third then gibles draco meteor could have been very useful against latios and made us see another of tobias' pokémon.

Can't argue with sceptile, it's a powerhouse, and did take down darkrai.

Swellow. What the hell Ash... Swellow?! I hate you. Way to choose a pokémon with no ranged attacks. Gliscor on the other hand has access to stone edge, and would hopefully not have tried to giga impact right back at latios' giga impact. I know gliscor got good screentime with the ash vs paul battle, but gliscor just beats swellow hands down.

I can't think of much else to say on the matter right now. I can see Unova league being like Hoenn with only his Unova pokémon, although unlike hoenn that does give ash a fair amount of variety (not just grovyle, swellow, glalie, torkoal, and corphish). I can see Ash becoming a sort of celebrity within the Unova league if he started showing off loads of his old Pokémon, shame we won't have him face a fighting type trainer and have prof oak turn up in unova doing ash a special favour bringing him back his primeape and pigeot.

 

[Coreysawrus]

I agree pretty much entirely with your list but I wish Pikachu didn't have to be on the list then Muk which deflects a lot of attacks could have been used.

I think Glalie would be a good choice because it is highly likely Tobias' team is all legendaries and the Ice typing would have been useful.

Lastly I think Kingler could have been a good choice for a water type on his team if it can still demonstrate the power that it did in the Indigo League

 

[precita]

Glalie definitely deserved to be in there, especially against Latios. It actually really annoys me that Glalie has never been used since the Hoenn league.

We didn't see it in Battle Frontier and in the Sinnoh league it didn't get a battle. Way for the writers to blow off a totally cool and unique Pokemon.

 

[Linkachu]

RLRL, I love how you like Ash's Torkoal, which was overall useless, but indirectly bash Swellow, which was a pretty solid and awesome part of his Hoenn team.

But regarding Infernape... I can't recall completely now, but wasn't it stated that Ash would've used Infernape but it was still too damaged from its previous battle to be used? And I don't even recall Charizard being available for the Sinnoh League (my memory, it is teh sux) and thus it shouldn't be counted either.

While I agree that some of Ash's choices for that match weren't his strongest, it's clear that Ash wanted to use different Pokemon for it compared to his previous match with Paul. I'm biased towards Snorlax and think it would've been a much better choice compared to Torkoal (even Quilava would've been), but I personally don't have any real qualms with that match. Even within the context of the show Ash was outmatched and likely would've still lost even if he had been using different Pokemon.

I wonder if the writers even planned what other Pokemon Tobias might have...

 

[RLRL]

I really hope that they did have a plan for him, even if it ends up Tobias being a rival for ash that turns up with various different legendaries, could be great fun =)

I think charizard is always available and just a phone call away.

 

[Linkachu]

I think charizard is always available and just a phone call away.

Likely so, but Ash probably never intended to call for Charizard or couldn't for whatever reason. (Plus its awesomeness totally would've taken away from Sceptile, Infernape, and Torterra)

 

[precita]

You know it is odd that Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charizard didn't get a reunion in DP like they got at the end of Johto and the end of AG. They were completely ignored this tine.

It might be for the same reason Misty was ignored and forgotten, the writers probably feel since the original series is so old most of its characters are unknown to younger Pokemon fans. They would have no idea why Ash had this Charizard from a valley.

 

[shortsxxx]

ash if he had charizard, gliscor, pikachu, sceptile, heracross, and corphish

 

[RLRL]

It's a shame we will probably never see primeape again, or pidgeot, I'd love for ash to send oak/gary on an errand to fetch them both for him to aid in the unova league.

I think what annoyed me more with the battle was the shortness of it, I'd rather it be at least a little bit longer and seeing tobias at least use 3 pokémon. Also, I think as per usual tournament style, ash should have had a final round to get 3rd or 4th place.

 

[KoL]

Let's be honest, Tobias basically existed as a way of making sure that Ash didn't win (because no main character is ever allowed to win anything) and probably because the writers were rushed for time and needed a quick and easy way to make Ash lose and end the Gen IV anime.

This generation he'll probably get beaten by a guy with a Kyurem and a Genesect or something.

P.S. The anime still sucks.

 

[Linkachu]

Let's be honest, Tobias basically existed as a way of making sure that Ash didn't win (because no main character is ever allowed to win anything) and probably because the writers were rushed for time and needed a quick and easy way to make Ash lose and end the Gen IV anime.

That's kinda besides the point with any discussion like this however. We're discussing things within the context of the show, not the realities behind the writing (which I'd hope everyone is already aware of). Tobias = contrived plot device.

 

[RLRL]

This generation he'll probably get beaten by a guy with a Kyurem and a Genesect or something.

P.S. The anime still sucks.

More importantly, I really hope that doesn't happen this generation, yes I know ash can't continually win tournaments etc but if he continually loses out to legendaries it just ruins the fun of the show and stamps in the argument they're always pushing in the anime about pokémon's inner power being more important and all that other stuff.

I'd rather whoever beat ash in the unova league to kick his ass with a ferrothorn, just because it's badass =)

 

[KoL]

I really hope that doesn't happen this generation, yes I know ash can't continually win tournaments etc but if he continually loses out to legendaries it just ruins the fun of the show and stamps in the argument they're always pushing in the anime about pokémon's inner power being more important and all that other stuff.

I think the message is more along the lines that you don't need to win and become No.1 to have achieved something and grown stronger and smarter, which really rings hollow when Ash is reduced to the equivalent of a brain-dead novice at the start of every arc after getting owned at the end of the arc preceding it.

Maybe there was a purpose behind Ash never winning at first, but now he simply never wins so that the series has an excuse for continuing on perpetually without having to change at all, even though the series was already growing very stale by mid-Johto before the blatant rehashing started.

 

[precita]

The anime will always be repetitive but the fact that so many older fans still enjoy watching it says a lot. Admittedly Johto is where a lot of us originally abandoned the anime, and the show has never been consistently good, but there is enough in each saga to keep me interested and watching.

Pretty much the only reason why Johto did get the hate it got is because that's where the tedious fillers started coming in full-force for the first time. After how short Kanto and Orange were, I don't think anyone was prepared to sit through 3 years of the same region filled with endless fillers and no character development.

After that people got used to the idea of longer regions, and the writers improved the way they handled the main cast and their pokemon, albeit not so much for Brock, but for everyone else.

 

[KoL]

The anime will always be repetitive but the fact that so many older fans still enjoy watching it says a lot.

Most "older fans" I know hate the anime, so I don't know where you got that from. The vast majority of people I know that still watch the anime are below 18 years of age.

 

[precita]

To each their own. I've enjoyed every saga except for Johto, so that's why I still follow the series.

 

[RLRL]

Part of the reason I think Johto was such a long winded and a letdown as a series was largely that Ash had so few evolutions and captures, it was very stale very quickly. Add to that one of the most popular features of Gold and Silver being completely absent in the anime, the ability to return to kanto and face all 16 gyms. I know they did return to Kanto with the battle frontier saga, but if Ash had re-challenged the kanto gyms, at least for a single season, it would have been a lot better. Don't forget, the writers admitted the second season of Johto was supposed to be centered around Ash chasing Celebi, instead they completely dropped the GS ball plot device and hoped everyone would just "forget about it".

Also alluding to the "younger audiences would be confused by him having a charizard" I think the episode where cyndaquil evolves was largely a device to establish "unless you didn't know, these are all of ash's pokémon" it would have been easy enough to bring squirtle and charizard back for the reunion. Maybe after the 4 on 4 with pyramid king brandon using bulbasaur, charizard, and squirtle, the writers didn't want to rely on ash's first few pokémon every time he has a difficult battle.

 

[Linkachu]

I wasn't too fond of the first 1/3rd of Johto but quite liked the later 2/3rds of it. Personally I've always felt that its biggest shortcoming was Ash's incredibly slow transition to replacing his Kanto team with his inevitable Jotho team. I loved his Kanto team (especially 'Zard and Bulbasaur), but it just felt like the writers were reluctant to let them go.

But getting back to the original topic... XD

Maybe after the 4 on 4 with pyramid king brandon using bulbasaur, charizard, and squirtle, the writers didn't want to rely on ash's first few pokémon every time he has a difficult battle.

^This.

Those three have been showcased to death, so I have no qualms with the writers wanting to give Ash's other Pokemon more screen time. Cyndaquil evolving was well deserved after its somewhat shafted role in Johto, and with so much focus on Chimchar's evolution throughout the Sinnoh saga it's really nice that Charizard wasn't brought back to steal Infernape's thunder (err, fire).

 

[precita]

Sadly Ash's Johto team wound up being his worst developed team of the series. I think its obvious Ash would have done much worse in the Johto league had he not used his old Kanto pokemon.

Meanwhile his Hoenn Pokemon got him to the Top 8 by themselves, and his Sinnoh Pokemon were pretty strong and powerful as well. Ash would have won the Sinnoh league had he not come up against a guy with legendaries.

The writers barely evolving Ash's Pokemon in Johto didn't help. He had 1 evo the entire saga (Bayleef), and the rest just remained the same. Heracross was left at Oak's too fast, Phanpy didn't develop to BF, and we know the rest.

 

[Carmen Lopez]

Yeah, I didn't even watch this episode (and still refuse to watch it), I was so ticked off. But this thread isn't about how stupid the Tobias plot device is, so...

I honestly would've picked a team similar to the one RLRL picked:

Infernape
Gliscor
Heracross I'm pretty sure Latios is still slammed by bug moves while Heracross takes neutral from psychic.
Sceptile (if it had more supporting moves like Leech Seed)
Staraptor (Because I'm heavily biased. I love his Staraptor so much)Although Snorlax is the more solid choice for the two ubers.
Glalie because its the only thing with an Ice move on Ash's squad.

I was going to list a water type...but then I forgot, the creators don't like Ash having a fully evolved water type (not counting Kingler). And it looks like Oshawott is heading in that same direction << Also Ash annoys me by making bad decisions for the sake of being different. This thread does make me appreciate the fact that BW is giving Ash some more type diversity with dark types and a rock type.

 

[Samuel Oak]

I would have chosen

Heracross
Sceptile
Charizard
Muk
Pidgeot
Pikachu

I know ash's pidgeot is in Viridian forest, but pr.S.Oak could pick it up there and send it to the Sinnoh region

 

[Samuel Oak]

It would not be too hard to bring charizard and other pokemon of his old pokemon team back. Ash could simply just tell Iris and Cilan that he caught them while he was traveling through other regions.

 

[KoL]

Double-posting and gravedigging all in one, well done.

Warned, now read the rules.