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Heart Gold Team - Starting Point looking for improvements

Discussion in 'The Doctor's Clinic' started by Pokebunny, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. Okay, so my friend Hejin (who made a topic here: http://www.pokecharms.com/forums/http://www.pokecharms.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5) led me to this forum, and I read around a bit and thought it seemed like a nice place. These are a few of the Pokemon I've trained throughout my adventure, with fairly little thought about EVs, natures, and team synergy, but it's a starting point. I just really want a general idea of what direction I should go with my team, because I've never done much competitive battling before and I thought it would be fun (I am/was a competitive Starcraft and Heroes of Newerth player). I'll list my current "team" out for you guys, and hopefully you'll have a few ideas - items, movesets, nature advice, and Pokemon that aren't good choices in general would all be appreciated. I'll give a few of my own

    SCIZOR Lv. 100 @ Muscle Band [Naughty]
    Technician

    X-Scissor
    Night Slash
    Wing Attack
    Swords Dance

    ATK 336
    DEF 232
    SP ATK 152
    SP DEF 166
    SPD 174

    Notes: I plan to teach him Iron Head, but what move to delete? His nature is decent (good enough) and hopefully his EVs aren't too screwed that I'd have to retrain another one, but if it really sucks hard then I could do so.

    JOLTEON Lv. 77 @ Magnet [Gentle]
    Volt Absorb

    Thunderbolt
    Thunder
    Thunder Wave
    Double Kick

    ATK 151
    DEF 106
    SP ATK 212
    SP DEF 196
    SPD 239

    Notes: I really have no idea what to do with him, only trained/used him because I think he's an awesome Pokemon (haven't bothered giving him different moves yet :p). Double Kick obviously needs to go, Thunder as well - what are decent moves to replace those? Nature is not optimal but at least it doesn't smash his purpose into the ground.

    EMPOLEON Lv. 87 @ Wise Glasses/Leftovers (?) [Modest]
    Torrent

    Blizzard
    Surf
    Drill Peck
    Flash Cannon

    ATK 190
    DEF 181
    SP ATK 244
    SP DEF 225
    SPD 132

    Notes: Great nature, decent moveset. Not sure about the item - he has decent def/sp.def and low speed so the Leftovers are nice for survivability, but Wise Glasses obviously give him more killing power. Drill Peck needs to be replaced as a physical move on a -atk nature, suggestions? Blizzard could also be swapped for Ice Beam, but that's not high on my priority list ATM.

    TYPHLOSION Lv. 84 @ Charcoal [Bold]

    Flamethrower
    Eruption
    Strength (lol)
    Lava Plume

    ATK 157
    DEF 174
    SP ATK 224
    SP DEF 173
    SPD 225

    Notes: LOLtastically awful moves, at least Strength and Lava Plume - both entirely useless. Definitely need to get those replaced. Nature is okay. He was my starter and never re-breeded, so... yeah.

    ARTICUNO Lv. 59 @ NeverMeltIce [Quiet]
    Pressure

    Blizzard
    Hail
    Ice Beam
    Fly

    ATK 137
    DEF 140
    SP ATK 146
    SP DEF 169
    SPD 108

    Notes: Not much to say.. moveset and nature are both meh and dunno what to do with him. Thinking I should just scrap this guy, never really used him much.

    SPIRITOMB Lv. 50 @ Leftovers/Wise Glasses [Docile]

    Dark Pulse
    Ominous Wind
    Hypnosis
    Dream Eater

    ATK 114
    DEF 120
    SP ATK 108
    SP DEF 128
    SPD 55

    Notes: Trades off item with Empoleon, moveset and nature again seem average - not optimal but no glaring problems (to my newbie's eyes).

    So yeah, this is my pathetic team - if a certain Pokemon, move, nature, stats, etc seem useless, definitely looking for suggestions on replacements (or just tell me what sucks). Thanks for any and all critique~! Good day ^_^ ~
     
  2. Here we go. Please be patient and read all of what I am about to type.

    You said you wanted to teach Iron Head? I would recommend Wing Attack to delete, simply because there is no
    STAB (Same-type Attack Bonus) added to that move, and some fire-types have a Fighting sub-type.(Scizor is Bug/Steel) But I would be kinda regretful about that, since it has a 4x weakness to Fire-type moves and no less, and the ability Technician powers weak moves like that. So maybe Swords Dance? The Naughty Nature gives it a 10% boost in overall attack (Which is Great) but decreases Sp. Def by 10%, respectively. That makes it usually around faint in a turn when facing special Fire Sweepers, such as a Typhlosion with Flamethrower. Keep an Occa Berry in handy.

    For your Jolteon, I would suggest throwing away Double Kick for Iron Tail. Like Red's Pikachu, if Jolteon is fast enough,
    it will kill Ground-types in one hit. Thunder? DEFINITELY NOT. Just ditch Thunder Wave for Rain Dance. That gives Thunder normal accuracy (Other Ways Via Fly/Bounce) AND sometimes will hit through Protect or Detect, just like Feint.

    Empoleon being my fave Pokemon of all time, why wouldn't I know and give great advice? =)
    Blizzard is pretty innacurate...other Pokemon COULD kill you in one hit after preparing with an X Accuracy. Ice Beam can be used to decimate Pokemon like Garchomp and Torterra, having a 4x(Ultra-Effective) Weakness to Ice.
    Since you have HeartGold (Just like me) go to the guy who gives you "The Ultimate Elemental Moves" in Blackthorn.
    Replace Drill Peck with that, and surf with Hydro Pump, since Surf with STAB goes up to 142 Power, while Hydro Pump with STAB goes to 180! Pretty neat, huh? Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Hydro Cannon, and Flash Cannon?
    That seriously helped me in the long run~

    For Typhlosion... I would think about a moveset of Sunny Day, Solarbeam (Overcomes Weakness) and keeping Eruption and Flamethrower. Typhlosion is a Special Atk + Speed Sweeper, and using Sunny Day plus STAB.... That scares me.
    (My starter was Meganium....)

    I'd think about replacing Articuno with a Staraptor.... Articuno was supposed to be Defensive... but Ice is horrible in that regard. Staraptor's moves: Fly, Close Combat, Sky Attack (Tutor), and Endeavor. (Holding Focus Sash)

    I'd probaby scrap Spiritomb because Scizor has Night Slash.... for which Pokemon, I dunno. Maybe a Psychic-type
    could even out a balance?

    Not to make you feel bad, but this is in my eyes. I've been a Trainer for seven years straight..:p
     
  3. Sir Red

    Sir Red Charms' Caped Crusader

    Friend Code:
    5284-1920-5829
    The Elemental Hyper Beam moves are absolutely terrible moves and should never really be used seeing as you give your opponent a free turn to set up on you or possibly kill you. They're just terrible moves. So no to that. And Surf is more then a viable option over Hydro Pump seeing as if has a much greater accuracy and much more PP, and you pointed out the accuracy thing yourself earlier in your post. =\

    Um, Iron Tail on a Pokemon like Jolteon isn't really that good of a move. Jolteon is a Special Sweeper and doesn't have the Attack power to pull off the move. Besides, Iron Tail has rather crappy accuracy. A nice viable option on Jolteon is Signal Beam. Other then that, I'm not really sure on a moveset, seeing as it doesn't have that deep of a movepool. :x Thunder Wave isn't as awful as an option as PokeFanKorora seems to think, though.

    For your Scizor, you got the good ability, so you're going to want to take advantage of it. Put Bullet Punch on it and you'll be able to murder things something fierce. STAB Priority move with a boost from Technician and it becomes a truly lethal move. I believe Bug Bite takes advantage of Technician as well, and when all the factoring is done is actually stronger then X-Scissor. Swords Dance can be kept to boost your attack.

    Typhlosion is rather screwed over thanks to its awful movepool, so that sucks a lot. If you don't feel like setting up Sunny Day for fear of dying before hand against a Water type, I'd advise slapping a Power Herb on your Typhlosion as to get off one fast fire Solar Beam attack.

    Just because one Pokemon carries a move doesn't mean you should not have any other Pokemon carry moves of the same type. What were to happen if Scizor was fainted and a Ghost type came and started smashing through his team? Spiritomb would be able to deal Super Effective damage to it very nicely. A team needs to be able to cover its weaknesses in multiple fashions, not just one Pokemon. Although a note on your Spiritomb, Hypnosis & Dream Eater aren't that good of a combination in the metagame (Despite what Doctor Oak might say :V).

    Anyways, I realize I didn't give you too terribly much advice Pokebunny, and I apologize for that, I was more so trying to correct some of what PokeFanKorora said. But as an overall assessment, you're quick fix is to get rid of moves of the same type on some of your Pokemon. You're going to want to figure out what you want each Pokemon on your team to do.
     
  4. I really don't know that much, but I'll agree with what Sir Red is saying. Bullet Punch is probably a great option for Scizor, and I might also consider Iron Head to for the extra power. Typhlosion could use SolarBeam and Sunny Day, though I fear the setup time for that will leave him vulnerable. A Power Herb for a quick SolarBeam sounds better.

    As for Spiritomb, he seems pretty good, though I might suggest some annoyer moves like Curse or Pain Split. Though honestly, Curse can be countered by easily switching out, so maybe it's not that viable.

    I'm probably not the best source of advice. Listen to Sir Red and KoL if he gets hold of this thread. He also has really awesome advice.
     
    #4 Hejin, Aug 19, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  5. I see. I have read over what you have said, and have realized my mistakes. Thank you for the criticism.
     
  6. KoL

    KoL Expert FPS Player
    Staff Member Moderator

    PokeFanKotora, your advice is immensely flawed. Note this rule here:

    Although some of your advice is OK, a lot of it is not, and I suggest you look into the game a little more before advising other players, since posting bad advice is against the rules and can get you a warning.

    Now...this team contains a lot of Pokemon I've messed around with myself, or had utilized against me, so this should be fun:

    Here's my Scizor for you:

    Scizor @ Life Orb
    Adamant
    Technician
    252 ATK/100 SPEED/152 HP

    - Bullet Punch
    - Bug Bite
    - SuperPower
    - Swords Dance

    Technician-based Swords Dance sweeper. One thing of note here is the EVs - my Scizor is the same level as yours, yet has 394 Attack, whereas yours only has 336 Attack. That's what EV training can do for you, and I highly recommend it to you if you wish to enjoy success in battle. As for the set, Bullet Punch is Scizor's key move, as it helps him bypass his very poor Speed stat with a powerful STAB priority move (always goes first) that is further boosted by Technician. Bug Bite also gets the Technician and STAB boosts, making it overall more powerful than X-Scissor on Scizor as well as being Scizor's strongest attack. Superpower is there to crush any Steel-types who may stand in your way, since they resist both Bullet Punch and Bug Bite, and Swords Dance will boost your already amazing Attack stat to near-unstoppable levels. This guy is best used at the end of the game, to finish off a weakened opponent in one fell swoop.

    For Jolteon, again, here's my one:

    Jolteon @ Magnet/Life Orb
    Timid
    Volt Absorb
    252 SP.ATK/252 SPEED/6 HP

    - Thunderbolt
    - Signal Beam
    - Charge Beam
    - Substitute/Baton Pass/HP Ice or Grass/Shadow Ball/Wish/Protect/Seriously, anything could work here

    I consider this the "Wi-Fi Jolteon" since it's one of the few that doesn't really need Hidden Power (although it does help a lot) and this is a good thing since getting the right type and power for your Hidden Power is unbelievably hard. Thunderbolt will be your STAB move of choice, since with the Magnet in tow it'll hit surprisingly hard for no drawbacks, but if you'd like a bigger boost to all your moves then you can use Life Orb here instead. Charge Beam is to pick off severely weakened opponents, hopefully netting you a Sp.Attack boost along the way to increase your damage output, and Signal Beam crushes Grass-types. The last moveslot...well, speaks for itself. One thing I must say about this set is that it's probably one of the most fun movesets I've ever used.

    - Empoleon gets the rather quirky Grass Knot to add to his special movepool, and I'd highly recommend it over Drill Peck here since your Modest nature drops Empoleon's Attack stat. Ice Beam over Blizzard also, and your hold item can be Choice Specs if you don't mind the lockdown effect, but Wise Glasses or Leftovers will work fine too.

    - Don't knock Lava Plume - it may not be the strongest move, but the 30% burn chance it packs can severely wound anything trying to switch in on Typhlosion, especially if they rely on physical attacks to be effective. As for other moves, Typhlosion tends to be strapped for good choices if your Hidden Power type isn't a good one (Grass or Electric are best,) which can force players to attempt innovation and surprise with him. Power Herb Solarbeam is fantastic if your opponent isn't expecting it, but a bit crap if they do know it's there, since it only works once and is easy to blow on something that it won't harm. Focus Blast is a handy move as is Focus Punch, although the latter really needs Substitute to work well. Finally, Eruption + another Fire STAB can work as well - the reason for this is that Eruption is rather useless if Typhlosion isn't on or near full HP, and he will need a replacement STAB attack if his health drops low.

    - Articuno...he's usable, but not without a Rapid Spinner - Stealth Rock murders the poor bird and renders him near-useless, and I would agree with your decision to replace him here, if I'm being perfectly honest. Zapdos is a great replacement for him though, since he's not wounded nearly as much by Stealth Rock, and overall carries far more dangerous moves than Articuno does - if you can get him, Zapdos is who I'd recommend in Articuno's place.

    - Sleep Clause makes Dream Eater very useless unfortunately, but Hypnosis is still cool to have so I'd keep that move. One combination Spiritomb can utilize very nicely is the Sucker Punch + Pursuit combination - again, like Typhlosion, this may seem bad since it involves using two STAB attacks of the same type, but you must look at the bigger picture. Sucker Punch is quite strong on Spiritomb and bypasses his poor Speed stat, allowing him to strike a foe first like Bullet Punch, but only if the foe attacks. Pursuit can inflict massive damage on an opponent switching out, and combines well with Hypnosis since that move is likely to make an opponent switch out. Between Sucker Punch and Pursuit, you can create deadly check-mate combinations against anything weak to Dark - if you predict the opponent will switch out, hit them with Pursuit to KO them. If you predict they'll stay in and attack, Sucker Punch them - you'll strike before they can and KO them. Extremely deadly. If you're running Leftovers on Spiritomb, you could use Protect to make more use out of both Leftovers and your own Pressure ability too - these are just examples of Spiritomb's abilities, and if I tried to go over everything with him, I'd be here all day.

    Overall, some of your Natures need to be changed (Spiritomb, Typhlosion and Jolteon) and I'd highly recommend EV training as well, if you wish to compete on 'Charms or in any other online community. The advice given can get you started on fixing the more immediate issues though.
     
  7. Thanks a lot everyone - especially King of Lucario! Changes I've made to the current pokemon...

    Scizor: replaced Swords Dance with Bullet Punch. I love this move and can't believe I hadn't used it before on Scizor - it makes him into a sick versatile killing machine. I'm considering replacing either Night Slash or Wing Attack with SuperPower - is this a good idea? If so, which of those two? Haven't yet replaced X-Scissor with Bug Bite but will do so ASAP.

    Jolteon: Added Signal Beam and Shadow Ball over Thunder and Double Kick. Has helped a ton! I still have Thunder Wave, do you think replacing that with Charge Beam is a good idea, or is thunder wave still decent?

    Empoleon: Replaced Drill Peck with Grass Knot, which so far has felt like a weak move to me, but I haven't tested it out very much.

    Typhosion: Added Sunny Day/SolarBeam over Lava Plume and Strength. I really like how strong his full HP Eruption is with Charcoal - really does massive damage, and then Flamethrower at lower HP is equally epic.

    Articuno: Haven't changed, but there are a few other Pokemon I've started using instead of him.

    Spiritomb: Same as Articuno, unchanged, using him on and off.

    I'll list a few of the Pokemon I've started using tomorrow - enjoying battling Hejin a ton over the last few days w/ various pokemon. Again, thanks everyone!
     
  8. Sir Red

    Sir Red Charms' Caped Crusader

    Friend Code:
    5284-1920-5829
    The set that KoL suggested is the set that you would want to get. It's an amazing set and will cover your bases masterfully. I'd advise getting Swords Dance back if you can and putting it and SuperPower on your Scizor instead of Night Slash and Wing Attack. Seriously, those two moves will make Scizor far superior then you have it now.

    Grass Knot is anything but a weak move. It gives Empoleon a nice coverage move that can dish out some serious punishment. Swampert normally would smash away Empoleon with Earthquake, but Grass Knot provides you with a wicked attack to smash right through it. It's also a great way to stop various other water types from walling you. So don't knock Grass Knot.

    Again, I'm going to have to agree with what KoL said; if you want to make a very lethal Jolteon, that's a terrific way to go about it. It can also be a ton of fun just smashing away through other Pokemon. So I'd say go with Charge Beam over Thunder Wave and leave the status inflicting to something less frail.
     
  9. KoL

    KoL Expert FPS Player
    Staff Member Moderator

    Keep in mind that Grass Knot is only effective against Pokemon that are reasonably heavy. The damage it does is based on your opponent's weight, so if you're using it against lightweight Pokemon the damage will be terrible regardless of whether it is super-effective or not. Against heavier adversaries such as Swampert, Rhyperior, Suicune and Milotic (who also happen to be weak to the move) it will do absolutely tremendous damage, and will likely OHKO the first two with ease.

    As for Charge Beam, it forms the "crux" of the Jolteon set in that it can turn a simple revenge-kill against a weakened adversary into a full-on team sweep. Killing a slower opponent (and most opponents will be slower than Jolteon) with a Charge Beam has a very high chance of rewarding you with a Sp.Attack boost, which will cause all of your moves to do a lot more damage, Thunderbolt especially. This could potentially win you the game if you can pull it off at the right time. In that regard, Charge Beam will be far more useful than Thunder Wave, since Jolteon doesn't need to paralyze opponents (he should be faster than almost everything you face already) and odds are, the turn he uses to paralyze his target is the same turn the opponent uses to KO him for not attacking - not too handy really.
     

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