DPPt/HGSS Swellow or Skarmory?

[Jynx]

Well, I'm back again, and after a handful of Grimer, I am ready for my next pokemon. Unfortunately, I have the choice, now, between swellow and Skarmory. Quick attacks or annoying blows? Personally, I like them both, but I have always loved Skarmory. (However, Swellow was always with me.)
Here were my ideas:

Swellow @ Toxic Orb / Leftovers / ?
Adamant (+ATCK, -SP. ATCK)
Aerial Ace
Steel Wing
Facade
Whirlwind / U-turn

The idea is pretty obvious. Aerial Ace for STAB and no-misses, Steel Wing for rock-types, and Facade for the big bang. Now, the sad part is that I don't have access to U-Turn because of a certain Infernape that screamed to have it for me to beat the game. However, Whirlwind is quite lovely, too. But the lack of said TM is also the reason I lean towards Skarmory, my second idea:

Skarmory @ ?
Impish (+DEF, -SP. ATCK)
Aerial Ace / Steel Wing
Toxic / Steel Wing
Stealth Rock
Whirlwind

My general idea was to have him/her as an annoying pokemon. Aerial Ace or Steel Wing for STAB, Toxic and Stealth rock to pass around, and Whirlwind to pass them around with. I know, it's horrible. Help me, please!

 

[Ruko]

I haven't ever seen a Swellow to it's full potential, I've only heard about it from Jet. I'm sure he'll give you the full reason why you should pick Swellow, so I won't touch it.

this first Skarmory can inflict poison on most of your opponent's team, a good pokemon to put in the front of your party, and then lead up with a wall that can wait out the poison.

Skarmory@ Leftovers
Fly
Toxic Spikes
Stealth Rock
Whirlwind

Skarmory is the first pokemon I've found a good use for Fly with... Fly makes a great delay for attacks such as Toxic, and gives Leftovers an extra turn to work.
if the opponent takes advantage of it to switch, they get hit with Stealth Rock for sure, and Toxic Spikes if they are grounded.

Toxic Spikes may not seem as useful as Toxic, but anything that can avoid them, will lose a decent chunk of health from Stealth Rock... Levitate and Steel kind of throws this off though.

Stealth Rock is for flying types that arent hit by toxic spikes... they get Rock'd then you Whirlwind them away. there's a Chance you may already know this, but Stealth Rock does damage based on a Pokemon's weakness to rock types. Stealth Rock is a Charizard killer XD

Whirlwind is there to make the best use of Toxic Spikes and Stealth rock... after both of them are out, this attack is essentially Toxic with the Ground Element, and a weak Rock type attack paired into one.



Now I have another one for you... more of a support pokemon than its own individual, this one would be better to come out later, though could be useless if it isn't on the right team or a downturn of events takes place.

Skarmory@ Leftovers
Protect
Fly
Double Team
Attract/Substitute/Roost

This Skarmory is designed to come out after someone else has used Toxic Spikes, I use mine on a team with Tyranitar, so Sandstorm adds to the damage dealt. This Skarmory is meant as no more than a delay tactic, again steel types pose a major threat here, so you'll have to try to lure them out before you would send this Skarmory out. The fourth move was really just a filler, alternating between the first three will delay just fine

 

[Jynx]

I quite like the first move set! Also, it would be lovely to not have to HM Whore my Staravia around. XD
It pretty much does exactly what I want it to do. How would I get Toxic Spikes to a Skarmory, though?

 

[Ruko]

It isn't a level up move?

[after looking it up]

O.o
it can't learn it... I WAS FIGHTING A HACK!!!

mind you, I came up with that move set, but I distinctly remember having a Skarmory use Toxic Spikes right before I Thunder'd it!

apparently you'll need something else to use Toxic spikes with the first one as well, or give Skarmory Toxic instead... I'd recommend giving something else Toxic spikes, because you'll mainly be wanting to use whirlwind on Skarmory. At the same time, that takes up another place on your team.

Man am I PISSED Now!

 

[Carmen Lopez]

I think the move Spikes works pretty well in place of Toxic Spikes. To achieve the best results you'll have to stack it. It isn't quite as good Toxic Spikes but it is annoying like it.

Note that it won't work on flying types or (I think) Levitators.

 

[Ruko]

Spikes doesn't have a lasting effect, though with whirlwind over and over, it can build up.

I was saying Toxic spikes, so that once Skarmory is gone, most of the opponent's team would be poisoned and lightly damaged, at the least. Although, poisoning someone closes the door to any other status effects...

No, it doesn't work on fliers or levitators, neither do Toxic Spikes, and though it doesn't do much to levitators, Fliers take decent damage from Stealth Rock.

I also edited the bottom of my last post

 

[Jynx]

I also adore Forretress, but it seems risky to have two steel-types on one team. And I also lack the ability to use Earthquake. No TM, and I doubt I'll get it through Pick Up or the Battle Tower.
How about EV ideas for Skarmory or Swellow? I was thinking, for Skarmory, 252 Speed, and 126 on HP and 126 on DEF.

 

[Ruko]

yes, combining Forretress with Skarmory provides a Fire weakness, though if you were to use Omastar instead it would be electric.
Forretress is fun, use Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes again, then you explode.

Forretress would be nothing but support, Skarmory being the other half...
it's risky, but can work. Also note, after using this strategy once, your opponent will most likely have Rapid spin on their team.

IVs for Skarmory?
Whirlwind always goes last, so I wouldn't waste many on speed if that is going to be your main attack, if you use fly a lot on the other hand...

Whirlwind: Careful Nature: 190 HP, 100 Defense, 220 Sp. Def,
if you put EVs into the lowest stat, the effect will be the smallest, but at the same time, Skarmory's Defense is already plenty high enough.

Fly: Jolly Nature: HP 100, Def 70, Sp. Def 80, Spd 252.
If you want to use Fly as a Dodge effectively, you need to have the first strike, if you are slower, it gives your opponent a decent chance to use a stat boosting move (why waste a turn attacking thin air, when you go first)
but... even with the nature and EVs, Skarmory's Speed will be 245 with a 15 IV.

 

[Plapti]

I so see switches coming on when Fly is used. Drill Peck is a nice option.

My fave set with Skarmory (Flying-type fan boy and eveyone knows about it!)

Skarmory@Leftovers/Shed Shell
Impish
-Drill Peck
-Whirlwind/Roar
-Stealth Rock
-Roost

Drill Peck is such a great move.
Whilrwind and Roar abuse the use of Stealth Rock.
Roost is to keep it healthy.
Leftovers is obvious and SHed Shell is to escape from Magnezone's with Magnet Pull.

EVs: 252 HP/74 Attack/184 Defense

Swellow is one of the fastes Pokemon in the game. It's also the fastest Bird Pokemon. With a Base Speed of 125, not alot outspeeds it.

Swellow@Flame Orb/Choice Band
Jolly
-Brave Bird/Aerial Ace
-Facade
-U-Turn
-Protect/Pursuit/Quick Attack

EVS: 252 Spd/252 Attack/6 HP

Swellows hit hard and fst with Facade. It has rounghtly a 87.5% chance of one hit KOing Blissey with Facade when Choice Band and Guts is active (Assuming perfect Atk IVs).
Brave Bird hits hard as well, but I have a Swellow with this, and the recoil is a little bit too much. Aerial Ace is a solid second option.
U-Turn is a great hit and run move. It can be bought for 8000 Coins at the Game Corner.
Protect if you want to force the activation of the Flam Orb, otherwise, The other attacks have their uses.
Pursuit to hit switchers and Quick Attack to hit the weaker people who think they can kill you.

Flame Orb may activate a Burn, but Guts canles out the Attack loss and Guts will increase it by 1.5x, so it's totally worth it, instead of taking growing damage from the Toxic Orb. Choice Band for more power. Swellow is a beast if it comes in on a Will-o-Wisp. Facade's Base Power after A Choice Band, STAB, and Guts is 472.5.

The choice between the two is what your team is lacking. If you have a Physical Wall already, go Swellow, if you don't Skarmory.

 

[Jynx]

Thanks, Plapti! You were very super helpful there!
Do you guys think that it would be acceptable to have both?
Frankly, I think that I like the whole:
Drill Peck, Whirlwind/Roar, Stealth Rock, Roost
move set for Skarmory. And the option Plapti gave for Swellow, too.

 

[Ruko]

as I pretty clearly stated... the whole point of fly was to make the opponent switch, and cause toxic spikes to take effect. and it also gives a one turn delay for leftovers to do some more work.
Again though, without Toxic spikes, fly isn't as useful to use JUST so leftovers can take a better effect.

Stealth rock only does good damage on pokemon weak to rock types...

why would you not give any EVs to Sp. Defense, Plap?

 

[Plapti]

Special Sweepers don't mind the poison and Skar has such a bad S.Def that any super effective move on it will almost One hit kill it if it doesn't already kill it. Special Def. EVs aren't needed. HP and Def are more key areas than its Special Def.

The fact that once you use Fly once, they know and they'll switch out to someon who won't mint the posion and can take the hit.

Yes, Stealth Rock only does damage, but Spikes doesn't hit levitators or Flying. Stealth Rock will hit any Pokemon that will switch in. Spikes also has to be layered for Maximum Damage.

 

[Ruko]

for MAXIMUM damage, yes, though even one layer of Toxic spikes does more damage in the first turn[unless layered] than Stealth Rock does to types NOT weak to rock.
Stealth rock may do damage, but it is minimal, and shrugged off... it fills in the gaps that Toxic Spikes can't reach.

I can understand some of your reasoning behind fly, but stealth rock absolutely sucks against anything that isn't Fire, Ice, Bug, or Flying.
Toxic Spikes will hit everything for good damage [over a bit of time] except for Flyers (which stealth Rock will deal with) Steel Types and Levitators, which were a problem with your moves as well. [edit] I also forgot to mention you can't poison a poison-type.

Poisoning the opponent's team is what I'm getting at, so stacking the spikes wouldn't do much anyway, since Toxic becomes normal poison when you switch [whirlwind].
Toxic takes 6 turns to kill
Poison takes 8

Special EVs can save it from that OHKO and give time for Whirlwind, and Leftovers. Keeping it alive with even that little bit can make a difference.
if nothing else, I would suggest against any attack EVs on it.

If your opponent switches, so should you... Electric, then switch to a ground type or something with and electric absorbing ability, Fire can be countered with Flash Fire or a decent water type. Send Skarmory back out once the threat is gone.

[edit]
I'm not really arguing the moveset anymore, so much as I am the usefulness of Toxic Spikes, and Skarmory on a team with it instead of JUST Stealth Rock.

If you really don't like Fly for the predictability Jynx, Plap's moveset will work great. I still think fly makes a great delay for poison and leftovers though.

 

[Jynx]

Thanks, both of you, for all of your information.
I think that this is all I'll need to work off of. Who knows! Maybe I'll breed two Skarmory for each move set.
-snuggle-

 

[Plapti]

Good to see that our advice is helping. Now to prevent some SPAM, locking.