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World of Warcraft

Discussion in 'General Video Game Discussion' started by Keleri, Jun 14, 2010.

  1. Do any of you guys play WoW? I'm thoroughly addicted, but taking a bit of a break at the moment. I play on Horde Balnazzar-US and our guild is 11/12 in 10-man ICC.

    BEHOLD MY CHARACTERS:

    Level 80 Undead Warlock
    Level 80 Tauren Shaman
    Level 80 Tauren Druid
    Level 80 Blood Elf Paladin
    Level 73 Orc Hunter
    Level 72 Orc Death Knight
    Level 71 Tauren Warrior
    Level 62 Troll Rogue

    Yes yes, I'm addicted. Shhhhh.

    I'm ridiculously excited for Cataclysm, although the recent announcement of all the stuff they were throwing out made me sad. I'm saving the last two character slots on my server for a worgen priest and goblin mage. How about you guys, any plans for Cata?
     
  2. The last thread of this has been buried in the ages of Inter-history.

    However, since last, I have a new 80:
    Kithiani, my Tree. She's not very well geared at the moment as I spent most of my time getting that chest piece, and she hadn't done any dungeons before hitting 80.

    Also, Tatile's doing well, with my new pants of awesome! Got those off an odd little gnome, but hey, who's complaining about my awesome new pants?

    My Paladin's slowly getting to 80, she's just past the 78-50% mark. I just need to re-build money, material and Emblem reserves for when she hits and I need to gear her. Guh.

    Holy crap Keleri, you have a lot of characters.

    The only thing I'm excited for in Cataclysm is a less boring character levelling experience. Oh, and flying in Azeroth. Xanthier's hunter is likely to get a sex-and-race change from Male Draenei to Female Worgen. Should be fun.
     
  3. Woop another WoW Thread!

    I have lotsa 80s, but most of them arent really significant, except for BATUHAN THE BEAUTIFUL

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... cn=Batuhan

    Just look at the beauty.
    Beat the Lich King about a month ago, and now Im taking a WoW break. Might start again with the Cataclysm, but Im not really sure.
    All that free time is fun to have!
     
  4. Linkachu

    Linkachu Hero of Pizza
    Staff Member Administrator

    Friend Code:
    4167-4498-1464
    I knew you were into WoW, Kel, but I had no idea you played it this much... XD *claps*

    I have numerous characters but only two of them matter: my co-op character I play with Keri, and my new solo character.

    Tormia's my main character on Kirin Tor. She's a Tauren Hunter, currently level 54, and training primarily in Beast Mastery at the moment. I love my gun, dual axes, and skinning/leather working. Currently working on getting her a new nifty raptor mount, too. It's taking days, but the aging of the little dinos as we progress is really fun. As for my pet, I've had a ghost wolf named Lucied for ages and can't bring myself to replace him. I love that silly guy D:

    Morcia's a Draenei Paladin on Gorfiend (I rock level 10), and I haven't really played her much in days. Keri talked me into joining her old guild only to have it fall apart completely two days later, so I'll probably be quitting it next time I log in. All in all, Paladin's are pretty fun and a nice alternative to my usual hunter.

    So, yeah. That's me. I'm the causal WoW player. As for Cataclysm, I actually haven't been looking into it too deeply. I read about the Worgens, which sound really cool, and some fellow Charms members told me about the changes being done with hunters. Other than that I know little about it, and I'm okay with that. I'm just looking forward to getting it when it's finally released. :)
     
  5. Well, I gots me a Forsaken HPriest, named Nyera. Leveling her up on my bro's server wiff heirlooms. She'll be my main for a while...

    My NE Hunter that I lovingly leveled to 80 and got all these achievements and such was on our old account, so she got taken by a friend of ours. Who then proceeded to make her an Orc. *Cue fetal rocking*.
    Butbutbut, with Cata coming out and changing Hunters a lot, I'll be rolling a new one for happiness. I have no idea what class I'm making my Worgen yet, or if I'll even have one past level 20...
     
  6. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Wait a sec Rayn ,Night Elf?! You're going down! *pulls out swords* err I mean good for you.
    Anyway ,my main char is a level 70 undead death night on the Kirin Tor server.If you need any help ,send me a PM and we can work out a secudle ;) .
     
  7. Pfft, I rolled NE when I was 12 years old and there's sentimental reasons I love that race. Plus, it feels nice to be pretty sometimes.
    Buuuuuuuut, as far as Horde goes, I like the Forsaken, especially when they don't have lower jaw flesh and they're eyes are black sockets of dooooooooom. Trolls and Orcs only have one good looking face and Tauren just have one face period :/. And Blood Elves are TOO pretty...
    I did get a Dwarf Priest to 20, but then our account died so yeah.
     
  8. I play WoW too! Yay!

    I have a level 80 Night Elf Discipline Priest! Feel the pain!.. of my healing!
    My guild is 11/12 ICC 10 and 8/12 ICC 25; so we're getting there, but we're not quite there yet.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... cn=Ainawen

    -----

    Also, just so you know: neither faction is really good or bad. Just like us, they have solid ideas and opinions that they'd rather not change and, so, they will uphold such to keep order, even if they may be wrong. Sure, Varian Wrynn is a dickface, but so is Garrosh. Nobody likes Garrosh. Seriously. And he's going to be the new Horde leader.
     
    #8 Galaxite, Jun 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  9. My latest near-accomplishment: Amianya. Not yet totally gemmed/enchanted yet, but I did go through three Ahune and two Heroic runs with her today (admittedly I did those with other members of my raiding group, so they knew what to do and or Battlegroup isn't that bad for PUG'ing either, so the randoms we did get weren't /faceplam worthy). Yes I know my cloak is subpar >.> But it's better than the Wispcloak I had.

    Xanthier will my cut my gems for me :3 We make a good team.
     
  10. Don't feel bad, Tatile. My boots and bracers have hit rating on them and I'm a freaking healer. :-( I need to replace them ASAP. But, at the time, honestly, they were amazing upgrades from the rares.. LOL!
     
    #10 Galaxite, Jun 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  11. I mostly gemmed an enchanted now, obviously Xanthier helped by cutting a couple of my gems, but I do now have thee Brilliant Dragon's Eyes :3 Lots of Intellect! Just need to do more dungeons with her at some point.
     
  12. Double-posting bump thing because I think this is important.


    RealID. Specifically, the part where posting on the Blizzard forums will tell everyone your real name, whether you want to or not.


    Personally, I think this is an idiotic, dangerous and malicious move by Blizzard/Activision that has no basis in the needs of the player-base and has only been introduced on very shakey ground. Though a retroactive application would, apparently, be illegal*, I have already deleted all of my posts from the Blizzard forums. I know many people have already cancelled their accounts because of this upcoming "feature" and I'm wondering about doing the same myself.


    *I find there to be no ethical defense for this RealID, given the inherent risks of the system, and I'm sure the actual legality of it is questionable. Unfortunatly though, few people attempt to enforce the law on companies.
     
  13. Good thing it's my brother's name on the line! And I have done a google search on myself, it's come up with that my last name is a Muslim name... which it isn't.

    But yeaaaaaaaah, it's not a good idea. The internet is a place where anonymity is needed, you don't know what kind of people are out there trying to get somebody else's personal info. It's not very ethical to list names on a gaming engine/network, a social network where you can set up who sees what and who can search you is different. Most people didn't sign up for a social network when they signed up for WoW or Battlenet, they signed up for a game they could play with their friends on the internet.

    Not cool.
     
    #13 Rayn_Shyu, Jul 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  14. Old news by now : http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi ... Real-Names

    The idea has been cancelled.

    While Im not a big fan of the idea, I would still like to see what it would do to the official Forums.
    The WoW Community is horrible, and I would really really love to see whether it would change, remain the same or get worse.

    And now we wont see that D:
     
  15. Jeydis

    Friend Code:
    1805-2222-8581
    Steam:
    Wintermute666
    Level 1 trolls can be dealt with just like every forum deals with its scum. I find the realID forums project to simply be a bad idea. It brings nothing to the community except for conflict and possibly legal trouble. Im glad they canceled it.
     
  16. Yeah, found out the day after I bumped this.

    You wanted to see people's real names on the forums? People would have left. That's all. There would have been a dirge of decency, of people afraid for their own safety. You can grant accountability (which is now what they're going to do) but in a different manner. Using people's real names is by far one of the most arrogant, ignorant and wantonly dangerous things I've seen from Blizzard. Hell, 4Chan has demonstrated it is possibly to find a person on the internet using a single photograph.

    Besides, the actual inception of RealID could have been illegal in almost every EU country and Canada, given how their Data Protection Acts work.

    But come, Mr. Anderson, and defend your point of revealing our real identities to a disturbed, malicious and sadistic world.
     
  17. Fact is ,that the WoW forums are unbearable as of right now. And the idea wasnt really half bad.
    Thing is, you can easily circumvent that anyways. right now Im running around with the real ID of a certain "john johnson".
    its so easy to change, so theres no point in it anyways.

    And its not really illegal if you allow them to publish the names. Kind of like Facebook works.
    As long as you sign their policy they could do whatever they want to.

    The major problem I would have with it would be, that I dont want other people to know that I play this game, as Im sure that certain Employers dont want their employees to play a game that can have a negative impact on work.

    But Im not posting on the Forums anyways, so what the hey~
     
  18. Linkachu

    Linkachu Hero of Pizza
    Staff Member Administrator

    Friend Code:
    4167-4498-1464
    I just saw it as an extra hassle myself. I'm glad nothing really became of it. If I'm recalling the news, tho, it was supposed to be a voluntary feature, right? If so, it wouldn't have been so bad - I just wouldn't have used it.

    [me=Linkachu]really can't remember. Didn't follow it too closely.[/me]
     
    #18 Linkachu, Jul 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  19. EDIT: RealID in game is voluntary. On the forums it would have been mandatory.

    The fact that the WoW forums are a cesspit would not be rectified by introducing people's names. The reason most forums aren't cesspits is because of moderators; a thing that Blizzard seems to severly lack.

    Using a name which is not your own for creating an account which you pay for could be considered fraud (the using of other people's/incorrect details). The way that RealID was, to agree to it was in the EULA. So, you either agreed to have your name forcibly applied to a forum which has no real purpose to your real life or you never attempt to gain any help from either Blizzard or the community in that manner (or you quit). Face book is a choice: I do not have a Facebook, my real name does not appear on Google. However I know for a fact that finding my parents is extremely easy - why should they be subjected to a troll who might become angry at me? I would hardly say that's fair.

    Apart from employers making work "uncomfortable" or wholly "not there" for your being a gamer/raider/insufferable troll, having one's real name on an extremely large, oft visited forum, attached to a game with a truly questionable orbital-work (the gold farmers) is essentially inviting for trouble. A Blue demonstrated ths quite aptly: he posted his name on the US forums and within five minutes his home address, phone number, place of work, wife's name etc. were posted in that forum. Not only is that disturbing for identity theft (which is a growing concern for many) it is also worrying for the fact that people tend to get angry. Very angry. Those people angry at you for nicking "their" mining node? Some people are that angry in real life. It has been recorded on a several occasions that internet arguements have spilled over into real life; I recall one that led to arson on person's house.

    I remind you again that the WoW forums are a cesspit.

    Anonmity is one of the few freedoms, true freedoms, that we are granted still. Humanity can reveal its greatest face from here. It is as ugly as it is beautiful. You can say all you like for ridding the forums of trolls, but I do not believe that that is worth the risks of real names.


    Here's Seebs from WowHead, in the thread about RealID's repeal.
     
  20. The best way, I think, to counter the cesspit that is WoW forums, a crazy idea, have the names work a lot more like a regular forum! You could probably have a place where all your characters could be linked to the armory if you click their avatar or what not. Kinda like a regular forum would have more personal info linked.

    I don't know about you, but it's fun to look at all the trolls there and be thankful that that community isn't necessarily the community you link arms with (♥<3<3 the 'Charms!).

    Andandand... I decided that Warriors and Humans ain't that bad. I hope I don't suck at tanking. (Ignore the "Fury" spec, I just wanted extra AP XP.)
     
  21. Tanking's just practice and ignoring the pratts around you :) You can get addons like Omen if you've got them already, to help you with threat and such. Just remember, as a tank, healers are your bestest best friend EVER.
     
  22. I need to check for Omen... And having played a Healer (I'm pausing on Nyera cuz my brother is using the BoA gear...) I can attest that when Tanks are nice and let me drink every once in a while, life is a lot more fun :D. So yeah, I think I might be okay when I tank, having played the other side.

    Seriously, I think some tanks act more like they're just DPS that spam threaty moves D:. I've always been a nice healer and healed them and didn't say much, but it's not fun to have to drink after every trash pull because you pulled an entire thing of mobs and I didn't get a chance to drink my entire thing of water. So yeah, I'll try to be nice.

    Andandand... Have you guys seen anything on Cataclysm yet? I've seen some vids on Youtube... and I wanna roll a Worgen reeeaal bad.
     
  23. Yeah, the RealID thing was 100% to try to dip into the Facebook/social networking thing. Having to use your real name on the forums was patently insane. It would have driven away everyone who posted constructively and the trolls would have been undeterred.

    This comment on metafilter pretty much sums it up. Holy shit stalking, holy shit harassment, etc.

    I really liked the blue poster who posted his real name and had to close down his Facebook because of the flood of attention. And then a completely different guy with his name was getting continuously harassed.
     
  24. Some people spoiled the battle for Gnomeregan and Echo Isles for me yesterday. That was extremely bad, as I was avoiding videos of that stuff ;/

    And one thing you should learn early as the tank: Dont care for hunters mana. Hunters usually think they are big and want to drink after each mob pull.
    Dont let them. As long as the Healer has mana, everything is ok and you can move on. Hunters who cant manage their mana are usually bad anyways.

    And basically, tanking is the easiest Endgame Job you can choose from.
    In whole ICC most fights are Standing at point x and taunt every y stacks of z.
    DPS have it a bit harder because they usually have to avoid stuff and run around like crazy,
    and Healers have the biggest problems, as they have to move out of Dangerous places AND watch out for grp/tank.
    One overheal/missed GCD can mean a whipe as a healer. When you bork up your Rotation as a tank for a second, most likely nothing will happen.

    And omen isnt really needed for when you level a tank. I've been tanking late game and I havent been using it that much D:

    If you need help with any Warrior rotations, or gear information, you can just ask me~
    Been playing Warrior for a while, majorly fury, but I've already been tanking in BC.
     
    #24 Fumanshu, Jul 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  25. Thanks! I did a random RFC last night, it went over okay (as in no one died). I had two hunters, and their pets grabbed aggro from me every once in a while. Although I had a rough time with me randomly clicking off a target a couple times (:/), it went over okay. I had a Mage say oom, but I wasn't looking/paying attention much to my party members (the healer was wearing BoA gear so I wasn't so worried about his mana). It was really different from DPS/Healing.

    Rotations would be really nice to know, especially for Warrior cuz of how their resource works.

    Also, I love spoilers, so I've been looking at all of that >:}.
     
  26. The problem with Hunters is that their pet may have Growl turned on, which is essentially a taunt (debatble, but at your level it may as well be a taunt) - ask them to check if Growl is off (politely of course) and if it's not, there's your problem. If it is off and they're still ripping aggro.. you need more threat >.>

    Sorry, I don't know much about Warrior tanks, but do Google it, if you haven't already. I think it's something like Thunder Clap, something, something... everything's dead?

    Try Elitist Jerks or sommat, I do for healing. Tank Spot's good.
     
  27. You can be pretty sure that Pet aggro is 100% based on growl.
    Especially on the lower levels. Growl is always on when you start a hunter, and most dont even know about it.

    Tanking with the Warrior kind of feels like playing the Organs.
    Thunder Clap is your obvious AoE tank tool till you get the shockwave. And when you have the shockwave, you should use both.
    Always try to get your group of mobs together before you thunder clap the first time. If one mob comes later, click on tab and heroic strike it or something.
    It also makes your enemies Hit slower, which makes you survive longer/drains Healer mana less.
    I usually save the Shockwave for situations where I need Snap aggro and Thunder clap is on Cooldown, but thats just me.

    Heroic Strike is your Rage-Dump. If you have too much rage, or your other skills are on cool down, hit the Heroic Strike to do some dmg/aggro.
    Im using the Heroic Strike glyph with my Tank warrior, that combined with the 2nd Tier Tanking talent that gives you 15% crit for heroic strike is just cool.

    Shield Block is a nice tool against big groups of enemies, but I generally have it on cooldown, even against single mobs.
    Shield block makes your block go to 100%, which means that every hit you get in will get converted into Rage (Shield Specialization Talent).
    Blocking also means a chance for Revenge to Proc, and Revenge means that your Shield Slam Cooldown gets refreshed.

    Shield Slam is the #1 Awesome Threat skill. Use it always on CD.

    Cleave is your choice for multiple mob groups. Glyph helps I guess. Dont forget that Cleave and Heroic Strike share their Spot for "on next swing" skill.

    Sunder Armor/Devastate: the old #1 Threat skill, now still very cool. On bosses get it up to 5 stacks and keep it up, your DDs will thank you for that.
    Otherwise a cool skill with no Cooldown to slap onto fresh mobs and enemies when your have everything on cooldown.

    Revenge is that one skill that procs when you dodge/block/parry an attack. Keep it on your bar or bind it to other skills, its a very strong skill and needed for sword & board (which you unlock later, but anyways).

    Demo Shout is kind of cool to use when you have nothing to do, but its actually better left for the Fury Warriors to do.
    The other stuff is all pretty much situational and optional , like Shield wall as an example, or spell reflect, but I think they are self explaining.

    All in all you have to learn how mobs behave. Especially Casters. You might want to pull stuff around the corner sometimes so that the casters follow, and when you tank groups, you should click tab often, to build aggro on as many targets as possible, as sometimes Thunderclap isnt enough (it is on low levels though).

    You might want to get a gun/bow/throwing weapon for those tricky pulls, or Pull with taunt (dont Pull with taunt in endgame content). Play around a bit, and learn that stuff. Its not realy all that hard.

    As tatile said, Tankspot is the #1 site for Tank informations (the DPS info is cool too)
    Elitistjerks is also good, but they're better for DPS in my opinion.
    You could of course use both sources to get your infos.


    [EDIT] GREAT WALL OF FUMAAAN
     
  28. Hey guys, glad to see we've got some WoW players here.

    I myself play only on Earthen Ring, it's a roleplaying server in the US Vindication battlegroup.

    At the moment I have four characters that I play on.

    There's Salvetus, my first character and a level 80 Resto/Feral druid.

    My second character is Absolón, another level 80, and an Affliction warlock. For in-character reasons though, I may swap him to Demonology. I do loves a big burly demon to beat the hell out of things. :3

    The characters I'm currently working on are Deftera, a level 42 Arcane Mage, and Vociferon, a level 7 Rogue.

    With the exception of Vociferon (a Blood Elf) all of my characters are Alliance, but I'm hoping to stem out into the Horde in the future.
     
  29. Horde is pretty good, Dre, slightly different players, but not bad or better anyhow.

    Well, tanking is really not all that bad! It's easy once you get used to it and don't have a crappy group. Or Hunters that have to be reminded to turn Growl off... Or Pallys that have RF still on... Anyhow, other than trying to pull casters, it's pretty easy.
    I did get this one Retardadin in Heirlooms making fun of my craptastic gear in a random though. Ignored him, killed Bazil and left. Left me in a bad mood. But the next random I did I finished a BFD, and they were excited for me :D. Berating people doesn't get you far, but being nice to people leaves them with a good, fuzzy feeling that you want to share.

    Anyhow, LFD really gets you to know people; on my original Hunter, I didn't have too many experiences with other people cuz I was totally solo and did few instances. But now I know about how people can be nice and mean all the time.
     
  30. Yeah Rayn, people can be dicks, especially those with an "I've reached end-game and so should every one else" complex, don't let it bother you.

    With casters I've heard one of the easiest ways to deal with them is to corner pull. Obviously this requires a corner and for your PuG fellows not to be idiots, but it generally works.
     
  31. I played for about 5 months but I used refer a friend to start. It was awesome with 3X XP but after that leveling took a long time and it bored me. Got my tauren druid to about 67 then stopped. I'm thing about starting again, once I have the money to support it :p (money was also a factor to me stopping). I was in nagrand, US west server.
     
  32. Linkachu

    Linkachu Hero of Pizza
    Staff Member Administrator

    Friend Code:
    4167-4498-1464
    I just won my first and only duel. There I was minding my own business, selling stuff and feeling good about my latest auction haul, when some random person challenges me. Typically I decline all duel challenges, but this time I checked out their level (L. 61 compared to my L. 59) and thought to myself, "Why not?" So I accepted and the count down went off... First thing I did was sick my pet on my opponent and throw on Bestial Wrath. Then I put my Hunter's Mark on 'em, used Serpents String, healed myself (because the bugger had already done quite a bit of damage to me), and started shooting... Only to realize they were just about dead. A few seconds later and I'd won. Quick duel. Shiny achievement. Yay. Glad I didn't chicken out like usual. XP

    As for a status update: I hit the Outlands recently and the sky is really funky (I likes it). I'm rather enjoying the place so far because the enemies are actually a challenge again, but I can't wait to visit even more new locations. The Fel Reaver looks frelling nifty, too. I had my pet run up to it to get close and personal... only to be stepped on and OHKO'd. XD

    My goal now is to get my first flying mount. I currently have 152 gold and need, derr, another 120 (give or take) for both the ability and flying mount. But I'll get there someday... I'm just thankful that I don't need to pay the original amount before all the patch price drops happened. ^^
     
  33. Pfft, back when you first got a flying mount in Outland, it was a privilege. And you liked how it was expensive. I remember saving up for epic training, then being cheap by getting the free Netherdrake. [/backinmydayrant]Gosh, I wish I still had my Hunter *fetal position*.

    Well, got Nyera to Northerend. I have to say, I hate PvP realms, but it was the only one my brother was on and he had Heirlooms... I hate getting ganked... Bleh.
     
  34. Haha, I remember getting my first epic flyer. What a slog! But after you get your first epic flyer, making money becomes hilariously trivial. Five of my characters have it. :D
     
  35. Linkachu

    Linkachu Hero of Pizza
    Staff Member Administrator

    Friend Code:
    4167-4498-1464
    It's not that easy for me to make money now. ^^;

    And as much as I feel for everyone who struggled to get their first flying mounts, I'm glad it's not like that anymore. I play WoW casually and would like to have my mount sometime this century. :p The next stage up however... That's a different story. Not sure if I'll ever get it at the rate I play. XD
     
  36. I like how it is now too, Linky. I'm personally kind of glad I got to play through all of WoW a couple of different times (well, minus most dungeon/raid content). You get to see how hard it is to make money, feel proud of yourself, and then later you rejoice that it's not that hard anymore and you can get something done.
    And I feel you with trying to make money when you don't play as much as other people. It takes forever to do anything when all the time I get to play is when my brother is doing something else. But I still get stuff done :p.
     
    #36 Rayn_Shyu, Jul 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  37. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Woot! 74! I'm on my way to 80.Lich King beware ,for you shall be brought down by my Frosty Fury!.
     
  38. I made a toon on the Lightbringer realm 2 weeks ago and just dinged 73 this morning. :S I'm a terrible nerd. I also already have both of my land mounts and regular flying on her as well as a little over 2,000g on standby for cold weather flying and epic flying.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... =Boyfriend

    BACK IN MY DAY RIDING COST 40g, EPIC RIDING 600g, FLYING 1000g, AND EPIC FLYING.. WELL, THAT STILL COSTS 5000g BUT STILL.
     
    #38 Galaxite, Aug 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  39. Two very messy attempts on the Blood Queen and we took her down, after numerous tries of wiping in previous raids. I still don't overly like healing as Holy, but Disc just seem to be overlooked as a raiding spec sometimes :/

    Also, Andrew, Disc Priest love! :D


    My Shaman is now 25, and a co-worker of mine is in the Cataclysm beta. I have alreayd convinced her to make a Female Worgen Druid (she's Horde :X).
     
  40. Lol I have a max level disc priest that I posted about earlier too, lol. I love healing as disc. It's my favorite. I'm just a super heeeeealeeeer.
     
    #40 Galaxite, Aug 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013

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