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Re: Teh Drawings of Firefox - DRAMA

Discussion in 'Creative Archive' started by StellarWind Elsydeon, Feb 14, 2007.

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  1. StellarWind Elsydeon

    StellarWind Elsydeon Armblades Ascendant
    Staff Member Administrator

    Disclaimer: The following happened as a response to a certain picture in FireFox's art thread. The matter that instigated the drama has been cleared out since, and so the drama has been fissioned out of her topic and moved here so it would not corrupt her thread further.

    On to the Drama>>

    ... Why is it so terribly similar to the arcanine in this?

  2. Oh, don't be a tightwad, Stel .There's only so many poses you can put an arcanine in.

    Besides, FireFox didn't steal the poses. So, no worries. ^^

    She feels really bad about it too. . . ;_; *pats Firefox and grins* I vouch for her. ^^ bring your complaints to ME, and I'll deal with 'em. *puffs self up and looks threatening, growls like a small humming bird flies*

    ^^ [size=5pt]~la.[/size] I have to post some of my arts. ^^
  3. StellarWind Elsydeon

    StellarWind Elsydeon Armblades Ascendant
    Staff Member Administrator

    I appreciate you standing up for FireFox, MSDL, but I don't see a convincing reason why she shouldn't fight her own battles.

    I really don't like the notion of accusing friends (and I do consider her a friend, albeit not a very close one as we haven't known each other for a long time) of something like art theft, but...

    Give me a break here. Look at the face. The legs. Even the slight anatomical inconsistencies. Especially the face. They're virtually identical, save coloring style differences. Now, either this is one HELL of a coincidence, she used this Arcanine as a reference and ended up more copying it than drawing it in a similar pose, or there IS something about this Arcanine that is not as it should be.

    I really feel bad about having to suspect, but art theft is a subject that's rather close to my point of burnination.

    I'd appreciate to know what FireFox herself has to say about it, no middlepersons. It doesn't have to be public - she knows where to find me on MSN for instance. But I want to hear her side of the story straight from her. I hope it is not too much to ask.
  4. I only said something because FireFox was too sad to reply and I hadn't seen the picture. (My internet froze up and I bravely charged into battle without thinking)

    Now That I have tho, I must admit, it is rather suspicious.

    No harm done, really, tho. ^^ I'd be flattered if someone stole my artworks, I think.
  5. Doctor Oak

    Staff Member Overlord

    Art theft is taking the exact picture that someone else drew and claiming it as your own. It's pretty obvious all Firefox did was use the pic as a reference and she obviously DID draw it herself.

    I definitely don't think it's a case worthy of jumping down someone's throat over.
  6. baratron

    baratron Moderator of Elder Scrolls
    Staff Member Moderator

    I agree that she did draw it herself. But I reckon that the definition of "art theft" is up for debate. I agree that it must be plagiarism to steal an entire picture from someone else, but where does plagiarism start?

    It's easier when it comes to academia, such as doing essays and writing journal papers. The guideline I go on (which is backed up by various mark schemes) is that more or less any amount of copying from other sources is allowed if the student states very clearly the source/s they used and makes it obvious in some way what in their essay is a direct quote, and what is paraphrasing. To show the difference, let me grab a random Wikipedia entry I was looking at earlier.

    If I was writing an essay on DSPS and started it with the paragraph:
    Delayed sleep-phase syndrome (DSPS) is a long-term disorder of sleep timing. People with DSPS tend to fall asleep at late times, and also have difficulty waking up in the morning.
    that would be plagiarism. Oh sure, I changed a whole two words - but I didn't make it clear that I was almost-quoting, nor did I say where I was quoting from.

    Were I instead to write:
    Wikipedia defines Delayed sleep-phase syndrome (DSPS) as follows: "...a chronic disorder of sleep timing. People with DSPS tend to fall asleep at very late times, and also have difficulty waking up in the morning."
    that would be just fine, because I've made clear my source and what in my text is a direct quote. Ideally, I should also include a [1] which will refer to a footnote which gives the URL of the website as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome and something like Accessed 2007-02-18 19:06, as web-based sources can change or disappear on a daily basis - but it's clear what I said and what Wikipedia said.

    How does this apply to art? "What is art?" is always up for debate - check out Marcel Duchamp's "Fountain". If you can buy a urinal from a shop, sign it with a made-up name and submit it to a museum of modern art, then it's pretty obvious that the line between fair use and plagiarism is wonky.

    What I feel is that intentions are important. A big part of fanart is taking the character and creating the pose. Had FireFox been upfront and said "I couldn't figure out how to get Arcanine to pose properly so I borrowed the pose from this other artist" in the beginning, that'd have been ok, in my book. As it was, she was taking credit not only for her original line art and shading but also for the pose - something she doesn't have the right to claim. That's what makes it plagiarism to me.

    Very interesting things happen when you take the lineart of FireFox's picture and put it on top of lilhasu's Arcanine. The similarity between them is more than 90% - the only main difference is the black shading. Other differences (such as the much shorter bent front paw in FireFox's) could be the result of paper slipping as the picture was traced. So I'm left questioning whether she simply used lilhasu's picture as inspiration, or whether she directly traced it. The former seems "allowable" to me, but the latter doesn't - even someone with my artistic skills could trace a picture. So, to me, the only time direct tracing seems acceptable is if you drastically change the shading in your version of it - which isn't the case here, as both have been coloured in Arcanine's usual colour scheme.

    I don't think anyone can say for certain "Yes, this is theft" or "No, this isn't". Artists have been inspiring each other for centuries. But the problem is, by not being honest about the inspiration, FireFox has managed to cast suspicion over all her work. Now suspicious people like me are left questioning whether any of her artwork is original - which really sucks.
  7. I agree that FireFox should have stated where she got the Arcanine from, yes, but I also think this is getting carried a bit out of proportion. It's not really such a big deal... I'm sure she didn't mean anything by it - and judging from the previous posts about this issue (I haven't been able to contact her myself and talk to her), she's pretty upset about it too.

    I also have to say you're a bit unfair in your last paragraph. I think this is the only time FireFox has copied someone else's art (at least that we know of). Her art has a particular style (that's what I first noticed about the Arcanine, even before I read Stel's post - it wasn't hers. It was really apparent in the eyes, for example). That style has persisted since she first started posting drawings, including in art she couldn't possibly have plagiarized, i.e. my Kazan Avatar, which she made according to my personal specifications
  8. I agree with Daxxor. We can't flake her out for one picture. Judging by the comments she makes on her drawing's, I do believe most (if not all) are done by herself. For example, I'm pretty sure she drew all the Linkachu based pictures as, Linkachu is a unique concept that I'm sure not a lot of people know about. Everyone get's inspired by things at times :-\ I'm not saying she's a theif but I'm not saying she isn't either as that arcanine wasn't her own concept but, I refuse to label all her other pictures Not original based on one drawing.
  9. StellarWind Elsydeon

    StellarWind Elsydeon Armblades Ascendant
    Staff Member Administrator

    I too do not suspect that ALL of FireFox's creations are 'stolen', or traced, or whatever. I have more than some appreciation to her as an artist (she's one of the best cel-shaders I've ever encountered!) - and I am quite certain that she does most of her own work on her own.

    but this Arcanine just... Well, yeah. >>
  10. Doctor Oak

    Staff Member Overlord

    I don't think this needs to be a free for all, let Firefox have her say and leave the discussion be until she has, ok?
  11. baratron

    baratron Moderator of Elder Scrolls
    Staff Member Moderator

    Read what I said:

    I am not saying that all her work is copied or traced from elsewhere. I'm not even accusing her of copying anything bar this Arcanine. What I'm saying is that her lack of honesty is what's planted the seeds of suspicion in my mind. When I catch a person lying about one thing, it's awfully difficult for me to take them seriously about anything else.

    And I'm sure at this point someone will pull out the "but she's only 14" argument - but I knew when I was 14 that copying without credit or attribution was wrong! I learnt it in my art lessons at the age of 11 or 12! It seems implausible to me that a talented artist already active on DeviantArt wouldn't know the difference between borrowing inspiration and direct plagiarism. So she has brought the rebuke on herself.

    FireFox, I don't hate you - I don't think any of us hate you, and there's no need to hide from PokeCharms. But you owe the original creator of the picture an apology, through DA or elsewhere. Perhaps she's a real-life friend and she's cool with it, for all we know.

    And I'm just too sick to try continuing this argument - if people don't get what I'm saying, I'll just leave it.
  12. I did a report on this in. . .*squints* oh, 10th grade? And it's been brought up numerous other places, I've read about 5 articles on it, If you change 20% or more of the picture, it's not plagerism.

    not sure where this applies, but i think someonementioned there wasn't an exact definition of art theft? there is. ^^ That's it. What 20% is, is up to debate.

    I used to trace stuff when I was oh, 12, 13ish, but i did it to learn. most of this is just learning where to put the right lines, y'kno?

    It's possible she saw the arcanine, and months later, drew this arcanine resembling it, not realizing where she got the idea from, something liek that. i've done it loads myself ^^; heh heh. . .

  13. StellarWind Elsydeon

    StellarWind Elsydeon Armblades Ascendant
    Staff Member Administrator

    That's the thing, though. This isn't her usual style, and there is too much resemblence between the two pictures - the only real difference is the coloring style and the sorta-background. There's a difference between tracing a piece of art for learning purposes and tracing a piece of art and claiming it as your own. That quite definitely falls under art theft.

    It bothers me that someone as talented as FireFox would resort to this, really.

    Also, where IS she lately? She seems to have vanished off the surface of the planet ever since this incident. If I hadn't known that her computer is prone to technical difficulties, I'd find it suspicious too...
  14. Nemesis

    Former Administrator

    She probably hasn't been on because she is upset about all of this, as would I be.

    Stel, you said yourself she didn't need to speak to you about this on the forum, so why did you feel the need? Why not ask her on MSN straight away?

    That's all I will say on the matter, until I get to talk to FF on MSN.
  15. Doctor Oak

    Staff Member Overlord

    Ok, we're not going to see the discussion dropped clearly so I'm locking the topic for now. When FireFox returns she may get in touch with me to have it unlocked, and I will ask Stel, Nem, Rach and Katie to not post in this topic again until the issue is resolved.
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