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DPPt/HGSS [Pearl] Prototype Sandstorm Team

Discussion in 'The Doctor's Clinic' started by Wobbegong, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. Wretchedly prototype planning, but since my revelation that a team of something besides 6 sweepers is useful in wifi battles is about three days old, I probably need the firm guidance of people who have some idea of what they're doing.

    GIMMICK: All Sandstorm, all the time-- 2v2 only, currently, but obviously if that's a horribly bad idea someone please say so.

    Tyranitar @Wide Lens
    Adamant; 252 Attack/Speed, 6 HP?
    -Rock Slide
    -Crunch
    -Earthquake
    -Dragon Claw/Ice Fang

    Cacturne @...something
    Hardy; 252 Attack/Sp. Attack, 6 HP?
    -Dark Pulse
    -Energy Ball
    -Brick Break
    -Poison Jab

    Torterra @Leftovers (Big Root?)
    Impish; 174 Def, 168 Sp. Def/HP?
    -Stealth Rock
    -Leech Seed
    -Toxic
    -Roar

    Gliscor [Sand Veil] @Focus Sash
    Impish; 252 Defense/HP, 6 Speed?
    -Double Team
    -Swords Dance
    -Defog/Agility
    -Baton Pass

    Omastar [Shell Armor] @Wise Glasses
    Modest; 252 Sp. Attack/HP, 6 Speed
    -Ice Beam
    -Surf/Hydro Pump
    -HP: Electric
    -Spikes

    Hippowdon @
    Adamant; 252 Attack, 129 Defense/HP
    -Earthquake
    -Thunder Fang
    -Ice Fang
    -Rock Slide/Stone Edge

    Tyranitar: Putting it into play forces a sandstorm into existence. Other than that: hits things hard. Abilities listed are my attempt at type coverage, because what is a sweeper without type coverage? Probably a smear on the floor in two turns.

    Cacturne: Sweeper #2! But a mixed sweeper, oho. Sand Veil means it should be able to sit in a Sandstorm with slightly more impunity than most things, despite being slow as butt.

    Torterra: Nuisance: drains you two ways, plus periodically forces you out over 'rocks for additional pain. I'm unsure if it would be sturdy enough to get away with all of this, though-- Meganium was my other idea, since it has somewhat better Sp. Defense, but it can't pull the 'rocks-Roar combo.

    Gliscor: ...I'm trying to come up with a good plan for Gliscor, because I think they're awesome, but I'm having trouble doing something between "4 offensive attacks for maximum coverage" and "Baton Pass @#$%!". On the plus side, a couple Double Teams in with Sandstorm up and I could get away with stats boosts as much as I liked before BPing to a sweeper. (Random technical question: could the evasion boost from Sand Veil be Baton Passed? I assume no.)

    Omastar: Obvious question #1: do Spikes and Stealth Rock stack? Obvious question #2: on an often-water-susceptible team, is Surf worth it? KOing my own teammates is not good times.

    Hippowdon: Hey look, a malformed Tyranitar! Pros: mmm, electric attacks. Cons: it's the same freakin' thing as Tyranitar, pretty much. Then again, a backup way of getting Sandstorm into play in case someone tries to play dueling weather effects is good-- but I could just stick Sandstorm on something else.


    One too-big post later... yeah, I'm almost positive this needs a horrible amount of work, but I can't tell what ideas/concepts might be worth salvaging and which ones need to be sent to the chopping block.
     
  2. The key to such a team is to spread out your typings as best as possible. As such, I don't think you should have both Cacturne and Torterra. A steel type might be a good alternative. Magnezone might work nicely as it will have the element of surprise on such a team and will also work to counter your water weakness.
     
  3. Truthfully, I suggest Scizor :3

    It may not benefit much from Sandstorm, but he's a very useful Pokemon and doesn't take damage from it. Along with this, since it's only weakness is fire, you could switch out to some bulky ground or rock type when faced with something like...Infernape, for example.

    Also, as for the Gliscor, I do suggest you put on atleast one attacking move in place of Double Team in case your team ever goes competitive and such, or Defog/Agility, as Defog isn't really helpful if your opponent can switch out from it.

    Also, as for your obvious questions, Stealth Rock cannot be used more than once in a battle without your opponent having used Rapid Spin, and you can use Spikes up to three times, if that's what you mean. Or, if you're asking if they can both be used with each other, they can. As for your second question, it can be worth it due to the nice coverage Surf can get, and besides, you have Hippowdon to stop Water types. You may, however, want to change Omastar's HP to Grass, so as to be able to hurt some Water types that are Part Ground like Whiscash or Quagsire and such.
     
  4. It's not so easy to just change H.P. though.

    I agree that Double Team should go, because a lot of people play an evasion clause and you wouldn't be able to use Gliscor against them.
     
  5. You need to have Dugtrio there really good taking hits
     
  6. KoL

    KoL FPS Guy
    Staff Member Moderator

    A few notes to take on board:

    - T-Tar's somewhat poor Speed and immense physical Attack power generally make Stone Edge a better option than Rock Slide - T-Tar can get away with the move missing as well thanks to his good defenses should the accuracy put you off a bit.

    Cacturne wants something like this:

    Cacturne @ Brightpowder
    Sand Veil
    Adamant

    - Focus Punch
    - Sucker Punch
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed/Ingrain/Giga Drain

    This set relies on Sandstorm being out, but since you have a Sandstorm team, I'll assume Sandstorm as being constantly in play here. Sand Veil + Brightpowder is a nasty combination, especially when combined with Substitute and Focus Punch. Sucker Punch is a fun option to mess your opponent up even more, and the last move is basically there to try and give you more Subs to use - Leech Seed is probably the best option since it forces switches on top of healing you (AND damaging the opponent along with the Sandstorm,) allowing you to Sub safely, but Ingrain's anti-PHazing effect can come in very handy as well.

    - Torterra really needs an attack of some sort - Taunt effectively ruins the whole set as it is right now. If Cacturne carries Leech Seed, Torterra probably won't need it himself, allowing him to make good use of his Base 100+ Attack stat, which really shouldn't be left to waste.

    - Big no on Defog for Gliscor - this move is a shoe-in for worst move in the game, since it clears away YOUR entry hazards, not the ones set up by your opponent when you use it (it's essentially a self-inflicted Rapid Spin.) Double Team is banned pretty much everywhere, and again this Gliscor is begging to get Taunted and thus crippled, and just like Torterra, Gliscor packs a very nice Attack stat on top of a very, very nice offensive movepool - I'd put some attacks on there if I were you.

    - Onto Omastar, as Tangrow correctly stated, Spikes and Stealth Rock DO stack with each other, so feel free to use both and really give your opponent a hard time. Moving on, I'd say a more useful move to have on Omastar would be Earth Power - it's stronger than Hidden Power overall, and it gives very nice coverage alongside Ice Beam and Hydro Pump/Surf.

    - Finally, Hippowdon doesn't need to be the same as Tyranitar - if Tyranitar is focusing on offensive moves, Hippowdon can focus on defensive moves, and this is where Hippowdon's Egg moves come into play - Slack Off, Stockpile and Curse are all available through breeding, and combined with Hippowdon's decent physical movepool and the support moves it can get via TM, Hippowdon can be a very good wall.

    As a note, you have a very, VERY severe Ice-type weakness in your team - two Pokemon 4x weak to Ice, and two 2x weak to it, with only Omastar providing any resistance to the type. Steel-types can be a boon here, Empoleon especially since it packs a 4x resistance to Ice on top of packing a pretty hefty Sp.Defense stat to combine well with your physical defenders. That's just one Pokemon of many that you can choose from - I'd definitely get a Steel-type for your team since it will help balance your typing out more, plus there are a lot of very good Steel-types out there to use.

    Finally, Chaos3000, Dugtrio is about as good at taking hits as a sheet of wet tissue paper. Keep up the rubbish advice and you'll receive a warning.
     
  7. I would run firepunch on Tyrannitar instead of icepunch, because you already have rock slide/stone edge for flying pokemans, and Firepunch can ruin many Steel switch-ins if you play your cards right.

    and if you use tyranitar as a pure attacker without any stat ups like dragon dance, the expert belt may be better to pack some extra punch :>


    and a little question: do poison spikes stack with stealth rock and normal spikes?
     
  8. KoL

    KoL FPS Guy
    Staff Member Moderator

    From what I know, yes - all three entry hazards stack with one another, allowing you to have out all three at once waiting to murder anything switching in.
     
  9. -Didn't know Double Team was widely banned, but given that the pretty much universal response to the move has been chucking your gameboy/controller across the room ever since Red/Blue, totally makes sense. (I'M LOOKIN' AT YOU, MUK.)

    -I haven't begun breeding for this team yet so you can pick out whatever is best for a given task and it doesn't bother me in the least. (I am also unafraid of breeding for strong Hidden Powers-- the move has traditionally been quite merciful to me.)

    -I blame the poorly-worded description of Defog, then. Yikes.

    -...actually I HAD bred up a cacturne, but I still have the parents lying around my boxes so doing up a second one shouldn't be the least bit difficult, if I do run with it instead of Torterra.

    -@#$% Taunt. Ok, yeah, if there's actually a decent danger that people will use it on me, I'll be careful to plan for it.

    -I could just run with an offensive Gliscor, I figured out one of those first. I just saw how nice it's defense stat was and wondered if it wouldn't be more useful playing "Buff My Team."

    -If the different entry hazards stack, I have to do that. HAVE TO. AHH. (Now, whether I do that with this team, or make up a different one for it....)

    -Magnetzone: electric is good, it's lack of a levitate option is bad. I'd be scared to send it out and accidentally Earthquake, instagibbing it.
    -Aggron: I'm fond of them and their move set is ok (as far as I can tell). Then again, it's like half the team already: strong defenses, good offense too.
    -Scizor: ooh, had forgotten about this one. Hrm. I'm not positive I know how to use one well, but it's certainly worth considering.
    -Empoleon: I hate them. My urge to have a decent team might overwhelm my distaste-- we'll see if I can't think of a better option.


    Alright, I'll be looking over the suggestions (these and any new ones after this post, if I can) and trying to iron out a slightly refined version.
     
  10. Well a typical Scizor has lots of priority moves since its technician ability doubles their base power.
     
  11. KoL

    KoL FPS Guy
    Staff Member Moderator

    Actually, a "typical" Scizor has only one priority move: Bullet Punch. In any case, here's mine:

    Scizor @ Occa Berry
    Adamant
    Technician
    252 ATK/156 HP/100 SPEED

    - Bullet Punch
    - SuperPower
    - Pursuit
    - Swords Dance

    Pure damage on this thing. TechSTAB Bullet Punch packs 90 Power, which is deadly on a priority move to say the least, never mind the fact that Scizor can acquire a maximum of 394 Attack at Lv.100. SuperPower is designed to smash through slower threats, especially ones weak to Fighting, although the Attack and Defense drop is something to be wary of. Pursuit is just fun - Base 60 power normally thanks to the Tech boost, and provides an 80 Power strike against anything that tries to run away from you. Swords Dance should speak for itself.

    The EVs grant max Attack, which is pretty much mandatory on all Scizor unless you like losing - long story. 100 EVs on Speed should let you outspeed anything that may attempt to wall you, and if you have a high IV in Speed you'll be approaching 190 Speed at Lv.100 anyway with this. 156 EVs in HP should push your HP up to around the 300+ mark, granting you quite a lot of resilience for a sweeper, especially with the Occa Berry there to cushion the blow from an attempted Fire-type attack.
     
  12. Every Scizor I've ever faced (and that's like in nearly every team) it has Bullet Punch and Quick Attack (not sure if it can have Mach Punch).
     
  13. KoL

    KoL FPS Guy
    Staff Member Moderator

    I've never seen a Scizor use both, and I personally would never consider both either - Bullet Punch makes Quick Attack obsolete in almost every possible scenario, besides against Water/Electric/Fire-types where Quick Attack's poor damage output and nonexistent type coverage still make it a weak option - even if you go first, if your attack is too weak to KO the opponent, you're going to get hit anyway just as if you'd used a non-priority attack, gone last, and KO'd the opponent with your (stronger) move. There are far better options than Quick Attack for Scizor, since Quick Attack gets pretty specialized use here for an overall mediocre (at best) payoff.
     
  14. Alright, draft #2! Hacking and slashing has occurred; type coverage still doesn't feel great, but the whole team should be a smidgen more well-rounded.

    Tyranitar @Expert Belt
    Adamant; 252 Attack, 128 HP/Defense
    -Stone Edge
    -Crunch
    -Earthquake
    -Fire Fang

    Cacturne @Brightpowder
    Adamant; 252 Attack/HP, 6 Speed
    -Substitute
    -Focus Punch
    -Sucker Punch/Spikes
    -Leech Seed

    Gliscor @Muscle Band
    Adamant; 252 Attack/Speed, 6 HP
    -Aerial Ace
    -X-Scissor
    -Brick Break
    -Stealth Rock

    Omastar @Wise Glasses [Shell Armor]
    Modest; 252 Sp. Attack, 88 HP/Sp. Defense, 82 Defense
    -Surf
    -Ice Beam
    -Ancientpower/Earth Power
    -Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock

    Hippowdon @Leftovers
    Impish; 172 HP, 169 Defense/Sp. Defense
    -Stockpile
    -Slack Off/Swallow
    -Earthquake
    -Fire/Lightning/Ice Fang

    Magnetzone @Scope Lens
    Modest; 252 Sp. Attack/HP, 6 Sp. Defense
    -Magnet Rise
    -Flash Cannon
    -Thunderbolt
    -Toxic?


    -T-Tar's fire fang as an anti-Skarmory/Grass/Ice, otherwise hopefully a bit more optimized to stand there and take it in the face for the one to two turns before the enemy faints.
    -King of Lucario's Cacturne suggestion shamelessly ripped off, although after reading up on Sucker Punch I'm unsure of it (my planning ahead skills/general ESP leave something to be desired in combat) and Spikes madness + Leech Seed helps with the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" theme.
    -Gliscor redone as a general attack bot, plus Stealth Rock since I figured it'd be more irritating than Night Slash.
    -Omastar... probably will run with Ancientpower because STAB puts it at the same power as EP, but without being a complete @#$% to get (since I don't have Platinum handy). Spikes/pSpikes (it can learn all three! glee!) to help make sure they get out onto the field, although which one I'd use depends on the rest of the team/general advice.
    -My first crack at wall-o'-Hippo. Stockpile for defensive bonuses, Slack Off/Swallow for healing, EQ and one of the prismatic Fangs for general attacking goodness.
    -Magnetzone: there might be a pokemon out there with fewer types of attacks available to it. I don't know if i could find it. Urgh. Magnet Rise in case it has to go out with T-Tar/Hippo, Flash Cannon/Thunderbolt for accurate yet painful STAB'd pain, Toxic... maybe... I ran out of ideas at this point. Look, would YOU expect a Magnezone to put Toxic on you? I thought not.
     
  15. I'm liking those set ups, but can T-tar not learn Fire Punch???
     
  16. Mkay, lessee~

    Personally, I do suggest that you keep Sucker Punch on Cacturne, as most people realize to smush it in the face half the time before you hit rather hard, although that's from my experience. You may want to put Gliscor as your lead since you have Stealth Rock on it, and it's good to get the rocks out ASAP. Just to say, most people don't use Toxic with Magnezone due to Magnezone's not truely fabulous defenses, as well as Toxic is usually run around a Pokemon that focuses on the use of Toxic to help win, like Umbreon.

    Just to say, Swallow isn't that wonderful if you have Slack Off as an option, since Swallow will reset the defensive gains you get from Stockpile. The choice of Fang on him really doesn't matter in my opinion, since you've already got Fire, Ice, and Electric moves on your team. If you wanted to, Toxic is a nice option on Hippowdon instead due to Hippo's stallish nature. Finally, if you go with Toxic on Hippowdon or anything else, there's not much of a need for Omastar to have Toxic Spikes, and it really doesn't need Stealth Rock either since Gliscor's got it, so Spikes would work well there.
     
  17. @GM: http://www.psypokes.com/dex/techdex/007/all indicates that if I were breeding in Emerald or Platinum, I could Move Tutor it with Fire Punch, yes. However, I have neither of those. If someone wants to volunteer to do it for me after everything else is said and done, I'd be happy to take them up on the offer, but for now I'm trying to focus on the moves I can get on my own. :>

    @Tangrow: yeah, I was leaning towards Slack Off if I could swing it, just wasn't sure offhand if that was a possible breedable combo with Stockpile/there was some other random reason I couldn't think of offhand making Swallow a superior option.

    I also assumed most people don't use Toxic with Magnetzone because they're not insane. I think it was more a cry for help on my part. Moving it to Hippo could work though, yeah. And the presence/lack of for Toxic was one of my main considerations for which (p)Spikes Omastar would get.
     
  18. Well If you sent me the Tyranitar and the shards I'd bring him to the move tutor to teach him Fire Punch and then trade him back to you. We've traded before too so we know we can trust each other.
     
  19. Well, assuming the shards in Platinum are the same thing as the shards in Pearl/Diamond, I'll keep that in mind, thank you. (Also assuming I decide to run with Fire Fang/Punch, still planning this team out....)
     
  20. ROUND 3! Changes from last build bolded.

    Tyranitar @Expert Belt
    Adamant; 252 Attack, 128 HP/Defense
    -Stone Edge
    -Crunch
    -Earthquake
    -Fire Fang/Punch

    Cacturne @Brightpowder
    Adamant; 252 Attack/HP, 6 Speed
    -Substitute
    -Focus Punch
    -Spikes
    -Leech Seed

    Gliscor @Muscle Band
    Adamant; 252 Attack/Speed, 6 HP
    -Aerial Ace
    -X-Scissor
    -Brick Break
    -Stealth Rock

    Omastar @Wise Glasses [Shell Armor]
    Modest; 252 Sp. Attack, 88 HP/Sp. Defense, 82 Defense
    -Surf
    -Ice Beam
    -Ancientpower
    -Spikes

    Hippowdon @Leftovers
    Impish; 172 HP, 169 Defense/Sp. Defense
    -Stockpile
    -Slack Off/Swallow
    -Earthquake
    -Toxic

    Bronzong @??? [Levitate]
    Sassy; 252 HP, 204 Sp. Def, 52 Attack
    -Gyro Ball
    -Grass Knot
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk



    -Cacturne is for annoying/whapping upside the head. Mostly annoying.
    -Omastar is for annoying/whapping upside the head. Mostly whapping.
    -Hippowdon sits there and takes it like a champ! Until they have special attacks, urgh.
    -I didn't like stupid Magnezone much, anyways. Given the extreme lack of things with a good Sp. Defense on this team, I figured I'd try making Bronzong a more special-oriented wall, although obviously it should be able to take a physical hit or two. Rest/Sleep Talk to try to give it some recovery abilities, Gyro Ball for non-grass-weak and/or very fast things, Grass Knot for those stupid ground/waters and things which move slowly-- 100 base power is nothing to sneeze at, even if it's a grass move. (Yes, yes, OMG BUT EQ except I already have two things on my team with it, I'm not sure I need more!)

    As always, telling me where I have gone horribly wrong is appreciated.
     

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