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OU Charizard?

Discussion in 'The Doctor's Clinic' started by Nim, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. Nim

    Nim

    Do you think Charizard can still compete in OU even with the fact that it gets serious butt hurt from SR? Apart from Bellyzard, I am not very familiar with any sets that charizard would be able to use in OU. I have been thinking about sets recently after getting a shiny, jolly Charmander. Here is what I'm thinking at the moment, I would really appreciate any advice. Even any other pokemon that would be able to support his weaknesses would be nice.


    Charizard @ Life Orb/Choice Band

    Jolly - EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 6 HP
    -Flare Blitz
    -Shadow Claw/Earthquake
    -Aerial Ace/Earthquake
    -Dragon Claw/Outrage

    Yeah, basically a physical sweep, The main problem is Gyrados and Swampert but without HP Grass or electric, there isnt much I can do.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    Charizard @ Life Orb

    Jolly - EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 6 HP
    -Swords Dance/Dragon Dance
    -Flare Blitz
    -Aerial Ace/Earthquake/Shadow Claw/Dragon Claw/Roost/Rest
    -Aerial Ace/Earthquake/Shadow Claw/Dragon Claw/Roost/Rest

    A dancing alternative to the previous set.

    Well as pittiful as it is thats all I can really think of at the moment, I just dont want to waste this shiny charizard so I need to make a decisive choice here. Thanks ;)
     
    #1 Nim, Jan 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  2. Eh...Sp. Charizard works better than you might think.

    Charizard @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Choice Specs

    Modest - EVs: 252 Sp.Atk/150 Speed/102 Def/4 HP
    -Flamethrower/HeatWave
    -Hidden Power Grass/Electric
    -Air Slash/Ominous Wind/Ancient Power
    -Roost/Rest/Air Slash/Ominous Wind/Ancient Power

    All right, for this set you can either go completely offensive with the specs, and no healing moves, or you can go with Life damage or Leftovers with healing moves. I would go with the Roost/Flamethrower/HiddenPower/AirSlash set over anything. It covers most things, except Gyarados/Swampert, depending on which Hidden Power that's used.
     
  3. Shocari

    Friend Code:
    3840-6487-5515
    Twist, he really can't use a Special set due to Jolly murdering his Special Attack. He could use it, but he wouldn't be seeing optimal results. Additionally, Physical Charizard sets can steal a KO or two from the unprepared, as most people expect it to play off of its higher Special Attack and not need to set up as much.

    Nim, here's the set I recommend:

    Charizard@Life Orb
    Jolly
    Blaze
    252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 HP(as 6 gives the exact same as 4)
    -Dragon Dance/Swords Dance
    -Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
    -Earthquake
    -Roost

    Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, you take your pick. With SD, you'll be able to have a higher attack after one turn, whereas DD gives an additional speed boost at the cost of raw power. Flare Blitz is good for a quick KO, but if you want 'zard to live a bit longer and you don't like the recoil stacking up with Life Orb, Fire Punch will be your next best bet. Earthquake is a great move to have, hitting everything Fire Punch can't, with the exception of Levitators and Flyers. Roost restores the health you probably lost after Life Orb or took from setting up, which, if you used DD, you'll be able to use while they're switching out or setting up.

    Note that Thunderpunch and Dragon Claw/Outrage are options, but you won't be seeing the same amount of coverage unless you replace Roost. Also, should you get below 33% health after a Dance or two(doesn't matter which), Blaze-activated Life Orb-boosted plus however many of whatever Dance you did Fire Punch/Flare Blitz should destroy if not nearly kill anything. After which, you can hopefully Roost back to safety.

    This set should work fine, provided you have an answer to Stealth Rock and are sure to send him in on something that won't be able to set-up and kill him.
     
  4. KoL

    KoL Expert FPS Player
    Staff Member Moderator

    If you want a good 'Zard set for OU, a Jolly Charmander is not likely to provide you with anything useful. OU is very unfriendly to 'Zard, which means any set that fails to take the hostile conditions into account for 'Zard will not succeed in the competitive environment.

    That's a nice way of saying the sets mentioned here would all get murdered in OU - as standard sets on anything else they'd be fine, but Stealth Rock forces 'Zard to improvise.

    There's two ways to deal with Stealth Rock for 'Zard: Rapid Spin or SubSalac. Rapid Spin removes the entry hazard altogether, allowing 'Zard to switch in freely, while SubSalac turns Stealth Rock's 50% HP damage from a liability to an assett. SubSalac or Sub + anything is the best option here since Rapid Spin alone renders 'Zard a liability as a whole.

    For your set, this is the best option:

    Charizard @ Liechi Berry/Salac Berry
    Jolly
    Blaze
    6 HP or Defense/252 Attack/252 Speed

    - Fire Punch/Flare Blitz
    - Outrage/Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake/Focus Punch
    - Substitute

    The objective is simple: get hit by Stealth Rock (you need to be on full HP for this) as you switch in on something that is likely to flee for its life from 'Zard. Use Substitute as they switch out - if your HP is divisible by four at Lv.100 (which it needs to be for this - check your IVs and apply EVs accordingly to make it divisible by four) then you'll be at 25% HP with Blaze and your berry activated for either an Attack or Speed boost. From there, it's sweeping time - Fire Punch/Flare Blitz for STAB and everything else is coverage. Note that Fire + Dragon + Fighting and Dragon + Fire + Ground provide perfect coverage, hitting every single adversary in the game for at least neutral damage.

    Hasty 'Zard with full Sp.Attack and Flamethrower, Dragon Pulse and Focus Punch and Petaya/Salac are best for these sets, mind you.
     
  5. Nim

    Nim

    That sounds really good Kol, but which do you honestly think would be better on this set; the salac or the liechi? Thanks Shocari for your help as well :D
     
    #5 Nim, Jan 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  6. KoL

    KoL Expert FPS Player
    Staff Member Moderator

    Normally I'd say Salac, but Liechi does get some note here since it boosts Charizard's rather mediocre Attack stat. I'd say go with whichever you feel would work best here myself.
     
  7. Um, when did I say anything about Jolly Nature, by the way? I said MODEST nature. That doesn't kill the Special Attack, last time I checked. Just saying for future reference.
     
  8. Carmen Lopez

    Friend Code:
    3480-3306-6134
    You didn't say anything about Jolly, but as Nim's Charmander is shiny and he wants to use it, I doubt he wants to rebreed for nature. Sho could've missed the Modest in your post and assumed you still meant that set for a Jolly nature which does kill its special attack. But as KoL said, a Hasty nature would be be best because it allows Charizard to pick either special or physical attacks and Charizard isn't built to take hits anyway.
     
  9. KoL

    KoL Expert FPS Player
    Staff Member Moderator

    Twist, try actually reading what people (i.e. myself and Nim in this case) post in the future, because that post of yours has just made you come off as an idiot and an ass all at once.
     
  10. Linkachu

    Linkachu Hero of Pizza
    Staff Member Administrator

    Friend Code:
    4167-4498-1464
    Here's something to keep in mind if you run KoL's set. If your main STAB ends up being Flare Blitz and you're down at 25% HP, you probably won't have the opportunity to pull off many Flare Blitzs before KOing yourself. Fire Punch might not be a bad option here, although it obviously won't pack the same power as the other choice.

    Just some food for thought. It really depends on what you hope to get out of Charizard.
     
  11. KoL

    KoL Expert FPS Player
    Staff Member Moderator

    Honestly, I'd be surprised if 'Zard survived the recoil from even one Flare Blitz while at 25% HP, especially if you used Liechi Berry as your item and VERY especially if your opponent has switched in something like Snorlax or Blissey expecting Fire Blast or something. If the boosted Flare Blitz's recoil doesn't KO you, it means your opponent likely survived it and knocked out your Substitute (or knocked 'Zard out straight if he didn't have a Sub up.)

    Fire Punch is the better option for physical STAB here as Katie said, but the power (as Katie also said) really begs to be higher than it is. This is the main reason why special 'Zard works this set better along with the superior Sp.Attack stat and better capacity for mixed attacking, but shiny 'Zard is so awesome that...well, yeah. The above issue with Flare Blitz is also the reason why Fire Punch is the standard STAB for Belly Drum 'Zard.
     
  12. Nim

    Nim

    Yeah, I was planning on choosing Fire Punch anyway due to Flare Blitz's recoil, especially when Charizard will probably be on 25% HP anyway. By the way, KoL, when you said that I would need my HP to be divisible by four I was just wondering exactly how I would do this; would I just have to see what his HP is without EV's and apply accordingly or would it be trial and error. I have a fair amount of HP EV reducing berries anyway so I guess it would be to much of a problem if I screw it up the first time.
     
  13. KoL

    KoL Expert FPS Player
    Staff Member Moderator

    The best way to do it is as follows:

    1. Find out what 'Zard's HP IV is. A Lv.100 Wi-Fi battle is the best method for this and you will need the exact value.
    2. 'Zard's minimum possible HP is 266 - this is what his HP will be at Lv.100 with 0 IVs and 0 EVs. Add your IV to 266 and see what you get.
    3. If the number you get in Step 2 is divisible by four, you can leave it as it is - no EVs are necessary on HP and you can stick those EVs somewhere else instead. If the value is not divisible by four, add EVs to the value to the point where it would be divisible by four. Note that you'll need 4 EVs on HP to increase the value by 1 point, 8 EVs to increase it by 2 and so on. Add as many EVs as necessary (but only as many as you need to make your HP divisible by 4.)

    If you need to take EVs from one of your offensive stats to achieve Step 3, take them off your Attack instead of your Speed.

    If you've yet to start training, I'd note that even with your Sp.Attack-dropping Nature your Sp.Attack would actually still be higher than your Attack stat with equal IVs and EVs in both. The special variation of this 'Zard set may not be too unviable here, but I'd see which offensive stat your IVs favour more here.
     
  14. Nim

    Nim

    It has actually already been trained a bit but I have been collecting loads of EV reducing berries so I can just wipe everything, so if I wipe all HP and have a lvl 100 battle then will I be able to see what the IV is?
     
  15. Sir Red

    Sir Red Charms' Caped Crusader

    Friend Code:
    5284-1920-5829
    Pretty much, yeah. You just need to know the exact EV's of your Pokemon, ideally in this case they would all be zero (which can be achieved from simply using 11 EV reducing berries for whichever particular stat to ensure that each is without doubt at zero, to be extra crazy safe). Then you enter the Level 100 battle and input their stats into an IV calculator and it will tell you your Pokemon's IVs. -^^-
     
  16. Nim

    Nim

    Awesome! I'll have to do that when the 3DS comes out as I have a WPA connection at the moment and only a DS Lite. Thanks for the help Red, KoL, Shocari and Linkachu. ;D
     
    #16 Nim, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  17. KoL

    KoL Expert FPS Player
    Staff Member Moderator

    I don't know how many times I'll have to repeat this, but 11 EV-reducing berries is NOT guaranteed to drop the EVs to zero. Oftentimes, you'll need more than 11 (I've frequently had to use at least 14 berries on one stat on occasions) but this ultimately depends on how many EVs were on the stat in the first place - the fewer EVs there are, the less berries you'll need.

    Basically, the whole "11 berries drops your EV to 0" is completely untrue and I don't understand why everywhere still seems to believe it is true.
     

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