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She's not implying that she isn't burdened by life's yolk, in fact, its the opposite. She feels that burden strongly and somewhat sympathizes with Azumi's stance. She agrees with it at face value, but disagrees on some of the finer points which she expounds on.
"Life is balance; yes, but on which side of that line do we stand? And who decides what 'balance' is?"
"It's simple really, whoever is stronger dictates the boundaries of balance. Whether you are careless or cautious, wise or short-sighted, it all depends on how strong you are. Mice flee at the slightest hint of danger, they're on the tips of their toes with every. little. thing. Do you know why? Because they know their place; it is among the weak, those whose life is easily snuffed by the passing whims of others. You can laugh and call it short-sighted, but do you know where the far-sighted Mice are...? Dead. Life may not wait for you to guarantee assurance, but if you can guarantee assurance then it is foolhardy to not do so.
I wanted to add another example but the mouse one was just the best fitting one that I could come up with.
Again, Sagisō agrees with Azumi's words but takes it one step further. Whether you're considered overly cautious or reckless depends on how strong you are. A Jonin casually walking into the forest of death isn't reckless, they're confident, an academy student who does the same is dead.
"Lions eat Zebra and that is balance; the strong triumph over the weak and that is balance; Great Nations trample over those less than them and that is balance. Haven't you been trampled long enough that you've learned to accept your lot in life?"
Sagisō paused for a brief moment, eyes narrowed into a vicious glare, she let her words sink in, but didn't allow Azumi the time to respond to them. Instead, she quickly continued.
She's added in that last part specifically because it should strike a chord with Azumi, the idea that Amegakure suffers when the Great Nations wage was is a part of the world's 'balance' because 'balance' is decided by those in power. The balanceofpower is between the Great Nations, and it does not account for minors like Amegakure or Nadeshiko.
Her last sentence 'Haven't you been trampled long enough that you've learned to accept your lot in life?' is meant as a prelude to this line, 'Know your place but do not be content with it', which doesn't imply that you should accept your lot in life and leave it like that. Her full message is: accept your lot for now and bide your time until you're strong enough to take a new lot.
"I have seen Lions," She paused, memories flashing back to three months ago on a small chain of islands where her skin crawled with the feeling power in the air, like liquid oppression washing over her; fear and discomfort oozed from the Skillful Star's very being, her body quivering, but not from the cold, "and to them, we aren't even worth being called Zebra. We are more like...mice, or bugs, hardly even noticed when they crush us underfoot."
"Since we know we are mice, we won't move with the airs of a tiger. There is no swifter path to death than overestimating your own strength; but, do not be mistaken. We are mice now but in the future, we will grow, bloom, evolve, until one day, even Lions will be wary of us. When I returned to Nadeshiko, that was the most valuable thing I could give my sisters, to instill in them the cruel truth of life. That the world's balance means we must watch our steps around giants, but one day," her eyes narrowed dangerously; her shivering by this point had stopped and the blood boiling in her veins seemed to fuel a lust for power, "they will watch their steps around us."
Sagisō squeezed a heated breath from her lips, her previous calm returning to her.
"Know your place but do not be content with it. I trust that she did what she thought was best without needlessly risking herself."
The Skillful Star swept her gaze over the competitors, eyeing the shinobi entering the rooms, some with headbands engraved with rain. Turning to Azumi one more time, she muttered softly.
"So you ask if I'm proud...? Yes. I've made sure that all of mine will come back alive, have you?"
I think she assessed the possible risks and then acted in a way she thought was appropriate. So yes, I'm proud, at the very least she'll live to try another day. How many of your fellow Ame ninja will get to say that?
She sees the shinobi mentality as directly responsible for why so many of them die so young and so quickly.
This is a bit more of a subtlety but it also reveals an aspect of Sagisō's pride, or how she responds to it. Her pride doesn't revolve around winning nor will it push her into being fearless or courageous. She's an immediate response girl when she thinks she can deal with the situation at hand, but she's willing to swallow her pride, let is stir like venom, and then strike at a person later down the line.
i.e. She isn't quickly offended but if you managed to truly offend her she'll be vindictive about it and will bear that grudge for a reasonably long time.
I don't think she was like this before...but I suppose now that I have more freedom with her I'm taking her character in interesting directions.
i. Getting compensation for the jinchuriki itself
b. Interrogating Kin for information on Orochimaru
i. Either getting infro from Suna or sending someone to Suna
1. Possibly Ibuki
c. The appearance of cloaked figures
d. Takato’s Report
e. Encounter with the Mist
i. Hama collecting blood samples
f. The Sound attack during the mission
i. Their targetting of Kiro
g. Mission Results:
i. 1 Jinchuriki Death (Kumo captured Biju)
ii. 2 Jinchuriki Captured (Suna: 6 tails) | (Iwa: 8 tails)
iii. 1 Sound Prisoner Captured
1. Zaku’s interrogation results
===================================================================
The first point I have on the list and the various sub-points under it. I'm hoping we can just start from the very first one and knock them off one by one.
So in discussing the mission the first thing is the deal between Kakashi and Pakura over the Jinchuriki
This is the list of all the topics discussed at the Dinner meeting that Hina hosted before the time skip. We didn't get to Rp everything, but this is what was discussed.
So in light of Smug's departure from the RP, I need to know if anyone wants to take control of Aku(only because Tsuki was the last to interact with him). If not, then I need to know of a way of how to write him out of the story in a way that isn't disrespectful to the character.
So in light of Smug's departure from the RP, I need to know if anyone wants to take control of Aku(only because Tsuki was the last to interact with him). If not, then I need to know of a way of how to write him out of the story in a way that isn't disrespectful to the character.
Proposal to set the agreed upon power of all Tailed Beasts as relative to the 8 Tails.
After a lengthy and insightful conversation with Retro, we managed to guesstimate a peak level of power that should be roughly accessible to characters. Our general estimations for strength in the series are as follows: (Strongest to Weakest)
8 Tails >= 7th Gate Guy
This is based on their respective fights against Kisame.
Note Kisame almost dying from one hit, only recovering through near-Tsunade level regeneration with Samehada.
Note that 6th Gate Guy says that there are too many of Kisame's sharks, and the duo seem roughly even despite Kisame only being in base. After opening the 7th Gate however, Guy's Hirudora just about one-shots Kisame.
Just based on the damage done to Kisame's body by the attack. Version 2 Killer Bee did more raw damage to Kisame than 7th Gate Guy's Hirudora. So although I'm saying they are roughly equivalent, evidence points to the full Biju mode being stronger. (Considering Killer Bee wasn't in Full Biju mode, just Version 2 mode.)
Samehada-fused Kisame
Samehada-fused Kisame speaks for himself being relative to Killer B in version 2 form and being able to drain the Hachibi of most of it's chakra. It should be mentioned that Killer Bee focused on saving the Racoon and old man and so he wasn't able to fight at full power. He didn't directly engage Samehada-fused Kisame that much, but they're shown as relative to each other with Samehada-fused Kisame holding the advantage because he's faster in water and has OP chakra drain.
6 Tails Naruto
This is the version of Naruto that was kinda taking a dump on Pain and I believe that speaks for itself. The reason Samehada-fused Kisame is listed higher than 6 Tails Naruto is due to the OP chakra drain that Samehada allows. Being able to almost completely drain the Hachibi of chakra in about 5 or so hits.
Sage Naruto
Sage Mode Naruto should also speak for himself given his battle with Pain. It should be noted, that Zetsu implies that Sage Naruto is stronger than MS Sasuke prior to the 5 Kage Summit. Sage Naruto should be roughly around the level of one of the 5 Kage and the 5 Kage are most assuredly stronger than Sasuke at this point.
Ay could evade Amaterasu and his speed was more than Sasuke could physically keep up with. This is not the same as Sasuke couldn't react to Ay, because Sasuke did react to Ay. However, the only thing Sasuke could do in time was summon his Susano. Sasuke was little more than Ay's rag-doll until he started protecting himself with Amaterasu. This was not Sasuke caught Ay off guard with the Amaterasu or anything of the sort, Ay just charged into the Amaterasu causes he's pretty reckless like that.
Onoki likewise would've killed Sasuke, however, Obito saved him before particle style could obliterate him.
Mei likewise would've killed Sasuke, because her acid techniques were eating through his Susano. No, Sasuke being fatigued doesn't make it plausible that a fully powered Sasuke could've resisted the acid mist because Mei also corroded Madara's Susano.
Gaara might would have also likely been able to kill Sasuke because, as noted during the war arc, the bottom of a skeletal Susano (Sasuke doesn't get armored Susano until he fights Danzo) is not protected. Gaara was able to pull Madara from his Susano and probably could've done the same to Sasuke. In addition, Gaara's sand was fast enough to intercept Amaterasu.
Danzo was evidently a rival for Sasuke at this point, however, there's something that must be pointed out.
It is implied throughout the arc that Sasuke is growing stronger as his Mangekyou rapidly matures and his hatred draws out more power. By the end of this arc Karin notes that Sasuke's chakra feels even more sinister than it did in his Curse Mark stage 2 form and we can also see as Sasuke advances from just a rib-cage Susano (Against Ay) to a full-bodied armored Susano (Against Danzo), in a matter of hours.
Sannin at Full Power
This one is debatable. Naruto is stated to have surpassed Jiraiya in Sage mode, and I'm assuming Sage Jiraiya is relative to the other Sannin in their respective full-power modes. The full power modes are:
Sage Mode Jiraiya + Ma & Pa
Hundred Healings Tsunade
8 Branches Orochimaru. (The 8 headed snake form he took right before being one-shot by Itachi)
In any case, if you think the Sannin at full power are stronger than Sage Naruto then that's fine. The gap between Sage Naruto and the Sannin at full power shouldn't be that large however.
4 Tails Naruto
4 Tails Naruto was able to slap around Orochimaru, however, it should be noted that Orochimaru was weakened at the time. That being said, I don't believe Orochimaru in peak form (base), would be strong enough to take on 4 tails Naruto. It should be noted that he was slapped around for the whole fight and managed to accomplish nothing except not getting killed.
Orochimaru himself says that a direct hit from 4-tail Naruto's Biju bomb would kill him.
Yes, Orochimaru managed to 'block' the attack with the Rashamon but...
The Biju bomb vaporizes all three Rashamon and still has enough power to do that to Orochimaru, on top of devastating the surroundings.
Curse Mark 2 Sasuke (Itachi fight)
This version of Sasuke is roughly relative to a sick and dying Itachi. That sick and dying Itachi is still a force to be reckoned with though as he promptly one-shots Orochimaru with hax. However, since Sasuke does not have access to such hax as the Totsuka Blade, he falls somewhere below 4 tails Naruto. Strong enough to kill an Orochimaru who was even weaker than the version that fought 4-Tails Naruto and to fight on par with a near-death Itachi who wasn't trying to kill him.
This puts him above the Sannin (base), since Itachi, without his MS, was able to thoroughly humiliate Orochimaru to the point where the latter ran away from the Akatsuki. The version of Itachi that beat Orochimaru is a stronger version of Itachi than the one that Sasuke fought but this Sasuke was able to kill Deidara and easily control Manda, and that's enough to put Sasuke above the Sannin in their base forms.
base Kisame w/ Samehada
Kisame is here because he'd likely lose against sick Itachi, who we are loosely scaling Curse-Mark 2 Sasuke to.
Canon Biju =~= Sannin in Base
The Sannin in base should be roughly the equivalent of the Biju, tails 1 - 7. I doubt they're much weaker than Kisame.
Note that while Kisame is stated to be relative to Biju, that's largely in-part due to Samehada.
Without Samehada Kisame would've been absolutely curb-stomped by Killer B. To back this up, it should also be noted that Pre-Kage Summit Sasuke when he fought Killer B was able to keep track of Bee in his Version 1 cloak (he couldn't keep track of all of Bee's swords, but he could track Bee's body just fine).
But the Raikage and a similarly cloaked B were too fast for Kisame to keep track of.
6th Gate Guy
As shown in the reasoning for 7th Gate Guy, 6th Gate Guy is shown to at most be relative to base Kisame and even then, base Kisame seemed to overwhelm him Asakujaku vs Water Shark Missile.
This version of Guy is only seen defeating a 30% Clone of Kisame which is...kind of lackluster.
Now, that list might look highly controversial, but it just about pans out. The really tricky bit is 6th Gate Guy because unfortunately, his best feat in series is defeating a 30% Clone of Kisame. I don't really see any reason to believe 6th Gate Guy could've been holding back enough to clear the gap between a 30% Kisame Clone and actual Kisame, especially since Guy seemed to be matched by, and even slightly exceeded, by a base Kisame during their fight on the island and had to resort to the 7th Gate against. Though this does prove that the jump from 6th to 7th gate is massive.
That isn't to say 6th Gate Guy is weak. In fact, I believe this list starts at about mid kage tier and after Curse Mark 2 Sasuke (Itachi Fight), everyone should be roughly Biju tier. By Biju tier, we're referring to the weaker Biju, which are the 7 tails and below. We are not referring to the 8 Tails or 9 Tails who are significantly stronger than the other Biju shown in series.
In fact, the 8 and 9 tails are so much stronger than the other Biju, that Tails 1 through 7 don't even deserve to be called Biju, they're closer to Kage tier.
I think a few places on the list could be swapped around and its up to debate but this is what I came up with after some serious consideration.
I digress though, whatever knitpicks anyone has with this list can be covered later.
Now, I went through all of that in order to set some precedent for how strong certain buffs are in the world of Naruto and thus, how strong they should be in AU.
Since our Biju are equalized, I suggest we say that all Perfect Jinchuriki should be roughly as strong as Killer Bee. This is the absolute highest multiplier that exists in the series prior to the War Arc and would give the Biju the weight they deserve. It would also make the Biju an actual threat and you wouldn't get cases of the Akatsuki bodying them with 0 difficulty.
i.e. Deidara one-shoting the 3 Tails and manhandling Gaara. (This same Deidara then gets killed by Sasuke, which would imply that start of shippuden Sasuke is relative to Biju...which is probably true for tails 1 - 7.) They really don't deserve to be called Biju....
Below Perfect Jinchuriki Biju-mode is a high-tailed version 2 Cloaks (more than half of the full number of tails, i.e. 5 tails and up for the 8-tails, 4 tails and up for the 6 and 7 tails, 3 tails and up for the 5 and 4 tails, 2 tails or greater for the three tails, 1 tail for the two-tails, partial-transformation for the 1-tail.)
Below high tailed version 2 cloaks would be the 8 Gates sans the 8th Gate. i.e. the 7th Gate
(This seems reasonable to me because the 8th Gate will likely never be used, since the consequence is death. The eight would also put a character firmly near the god-tier and above KCM 2 Sage Mode Naruto, only superceded by the likes of 6 Paths Madara, 6 Path Naruto & Sasuke, etc. Since we're trying not to reach War arc levels of broken, I imagine no one's eager to use 8 gates level of power.)
Below 7th Gate is lower tailed version 2 cloaks. (Below half the full number of tails...)
Below version 2 Cloaks would be Sage mode (but not by much).
Below Sage made would be version 1 cloaks and Curse Mark Stage 2s.
So the list of power multipliers would look something like this:
Perfect Jinchuriki (Full Biju Mode)
Version 2 Cloak (High number of tails)
7 Gate
Version 2 Cloak (Low number of tails) >= Sage Mode
Version 1 Cloaks (high number of tails)
Version 1 Cloaks (Low number of tails) = Curse Mark Stage 2
Now based on these estimations I'm going to spitball some numbers at you.
The Curse Mark in Stage 2 is assumed to boost your power roughly 10 times.
The Curse Seals of Heaven & Earth are stronger than the curse marks given to the Sound 4, but we're not sure by how much. So it's somewhere near 10 as well.
Version 1 Cloaks are scaled to the Seals of Heaven & Earth based on Naruto vs Sasuke in the Valley of the end. So we can say a version 1 cloak also boosts its wearers power by around 10 times and that number increases slowly with the number of tails.
Kisame notes that the chakra in Bee's version 2 cloak is more than 9 times larger than in his version 1 state.
This would imply that Version 2 Jinchuriki are near a hundred times stronger than their base? But that's maybe a bit sketch for the level of scaling we want to achieve. I'd suggest we treat everything additively instead of multiplicatively. So instead of multiplying their base by 10 it adds by 10 instead. We might also play with the numbers a bit.
The 8th Gate is stated to increase power by ten fold over ten fold, i.e. 100 times. Hence why the Version 2 being the equivalent of this is a bit sketch.
So if the 8th Gate is x100 the power, and Version 2 cloaks should be somewhere within the realm of 20-30 times the power (depending on the number of tails), then the 7th Gate should be near the middle of the V2 Cloaks. So for now I'll call it 25 times the base power.
Sage mode would be on the lower end of V2 Cloaks, so about 20 times the base power.
Version 1 cloaks would then be about 10-19 times the base power (depending on the number of tails).
Heaven and Earth Curse mark would be around 10-15 times the base power.
Regular Curse Marks would be 10 times the base power.
To re-iterate the list of power ups their respective numbers, it would be:
8th Gate (x100)
Full Biju Mode (x30-35)
Version 2 Cloak (x20-30)
7th Gate (x25)
Sage Mode (x20)
Version 1 Cloak (x10-19)
Curse Mark Stage 2 Heaven & Earth (x15)
Curse Mark Stage 2 [other] (x10)
On the topic of the Gates, it should be noted that Lee opened the 5th Gate
and that still didn't give him enough power to defeat Gaara. Without anything else to bench off of, I can only say the lower gates are somewhere near the equivalent of the Sound 4s curse mark to maybe the high end of version 1? So Gates 1-5 are somewhere around x1-16 maybe? with the 6th Gate being closer to 20.
The power given by the gates rises exponentially with each gate opened, so the boost from the first few gates is smaller compared to the later gates.
It's difficult to scale 6th Gate Guy against Curse Mark 2 Sasuke, because at that point in time I think we can agree Sasuke > Deidara > Guy. So while I think Curse Mark 2 Sasuke is likely stronger than 6th Gate Guy, that might be because Sasuke in base was Kage level while Guy was a Jonin.
I think we should just choose some numbers that fit the purposes of the RP.
That concludes my long ass research paper on power scaling, this took the better part of 5 hours to create.
Let me say a few more things to close though:
1) I am not trying to confirm definitive values on the multiplies in the series. I'm trying to take statements from the series, assume values that seem reasonable, and then suggest we run with those for the RP. We do not know what the correct values for most of these power ups are but since we most definitely need some form of estimate to stop Jinchuriki from getting treated like fodder, people rushing to 8 Gates level of power, etc. etc. I'm suggesting we extrapolate our own values and theses are the values I'm suggesting based on the evidence provided above.
2) Read #1 again. I'm not trying to claim absolute multipliers for the series, I'm suggesting we make our own multipliers in order to make scaling easier and prevent people from getting crazy.
3) For the love of God, read #1 again.
4) Obviously these values may need some ironing out but I think if we get started we can eventually have a working list of what powers and stronger than what and which ones can be stacked without becoming crazy OP.
5) The likes of Nagato and any villain that's supposed to be near his level of strength, are significantly stronger than the Perfect Jinchuriki and giving them multipliers is broken.
Here you see Nagato casually curb-stomping KCM Naruto and Killer B. Might I remind you this is the same KCM Naruto who can create clones at Biju level. This isn't the KCM Naruto that 1v5's the Biju, but this KCM Naruto is without doubt at the very peak of Biju tier.
Nagato, Damos, Haiahu, Orochimaru(?) being in this tier would justify their various feats in RP against Biju and otherwise.
Proposal to set the agreed upon power of all Tailed Beasts as relative to the 8 Tails.
After a lengthy and insightful conversation with Retro, we managed to guesstimate a peak level of power that should be roughly accessible to characters. Our general estimations for strength in the series are as follows: (Strongest to Weakest)
8 Tails >= 7th Gate Guy
This is based on their respective fights against Kisame.
Note Kisame almost dying from one hit, only recovering through near-Tsunade level regeneration with Samehada.
Note that 6th Gate Guy says that there are too many of Kisame's sharks, and the duo seem roughly even despite Kisame only being in base. After opening the 7th Gate however, Guy's Hirudora just about one-shots Kisame.
Just based on the damage done to Kisame's body by the attack. Version 2 Killer Bee did more raw damage to Kisame than 7th Gate Guy's Hirudora. So although I'm saying they are roughly equivalent, evidence points to the full Biju mode being stronger. (Considering Killer Bee wasn't in Full Biju mode, just Version 2 mode.)
Samehada-fused Kisame
Samehada-fused Kisame speaks for himself being relative to Killer B in version 2 form and being able to drain the Hachibi of most of it's chakra. It should be mentioned that Killer Bee focused on saving the Racoon and old man and so he wasn't able to fight at full power. He didn't directly engage Samehada-fused Kisame that much, but they're shown as relative to each other with Samehada-fused Kisame holding the advantage because he's faster in water and has OP chakra drain.
6 Tails Naruto
This is the version of Naruto that was kinda taking a dump on Pain and I believe that speaks for itself. The reason Samehada-fused Kisame is listed higher than 6 Tails Naruto is due to the OP chakra drain that Samehada allows. Being able to almost completely drain the Hachibi of chakra in about 5 or so hits.
Sage Naruto
Sage Mode Naruto should also speak for himself given his battle with Pain. It should be noted, that Zetsu implies that Sage Naruto is stronger than MS Sasuke prior to the 5 Kage Summit. Sage Naruto should be roughly around the level of one of the 5 Kage and the 5 Kage are most assuredly stronger than Sasuke at this point.
Ay could evade Amaterasu and his speed was more than Sasuke could physically keep up with. This is not the same as Sasuke couldn't react to Ay, because Sasuke did react to Ay. However, the only thing Sasuke could do in time was summon his Susano. Sasuke was little more than Ay's rag-doll until he started protecting himself with Amaterasu. This was not Sasuke caught Ay off guard with the Amaterasu or anything of the sort, Ay just charged into the Amaterasu causes he's pretty reckless like that.
Onoki likewise would've killed Sasuke, however, Obito saved him before particle style could obliterate him.
Mei likewise would've killed Sasuke, because her acid techniques were eating through his Susano. No, Sasuke being fatigued doesn't make it plausible that a fully powered Sasuke could've resisted the acid mist because Mei also corroded Madara's Susano.
Gaara might would have also likely been able to kill Sasuke because, as noted during the war arc, the bottom of a skeletal Susano (Sasuke doesn't get armored Susano until he fights Danzo) is not protected. Gaara was able to pull Madara from his Susano and probably could've done the same to Sasuke. In addition, Gaara's sand was fast enough to intercept Amaterasu.
Danzo was evidently a rival for Sasuke at this point, however, there's something that must be pointed out.
It is implied throughout the arc that Sasuke is growing stronger as his Mangekyou rapidly matures and his hatred draws out more power. By the end of this arc Karin notes that Sasuke's chakra feels even more sinister than it did in his Curse Mark stage 2 form and we can also see as Sasuke advances from just a rib-cage Susano (Against Ay) to a full-bodied armored Susano (Against Danzo), in a matter of hours.
Sannin at Full Power
This one is debatable. Naruto is stated to have surpassed Jiraiya in Sage mode, and I'm assuming Sage Jiraiya is relative to the other Sannin in their respective full-power modes. The full power modes are:
Sage Mode Jiraiya + Ma & Pa
Hundred Healings Tsunade
8 Branches Orochimaru. (The 8 headed snake form he took right before being one-shot by Itachi)
In any case, if you think the Sannin at full power are stronger than Sage Naruto then that's fine. The gap between Sage Naruto and the Sannin at full power shouldn't be that large however.
4 Tails Naruto
4 Tails Naruto was able to slap around Orochimaru, however, it should be noted that Orochimaru was weakened at the time. That being said, I don't believe Orochimaru in peak form (base), would be strong enough to take on 4 tails Naruto. It should be noted that he was slapped around for the whole fight and managed to accomplish nothing except not getting killed.
Orochimaru himself says that a direct hit from 4-tail Naruto's Biju bomb would kill him.
Yes, Orochimaru managed to 'block' the attack with the Rashamon but...
The Biju bomb vaporizes all three Rashamon and still has enough power to do that to Orochimaru, on top of devastating the surroundings.
Curse Mark 2 Sasuke (Itachi fight)
This version of Sasuke is roughly relative to a sick and dying Itachi. That sick and dying Itachi is still a force to be reckoned with though as he promptly one-shots Orochimaru with hax. However, since Sasuke does not have access to such hax as the Totsuka Blade, he falls somewhere below 4 tails Naruto. Strong enough to kill an Orochimaru who was even weaker than the version that fight on par with a near-death Itachi who wasn't trying to kill him.
This puts him above the Sannin (base), since Itachi, without his MS, was able to thoroughly humiliate Orochimaru to the point where the latter ran away from the Akatsuki. This is a stronger version of Itachi than the one that Sasuke fought but this Sasuke was able to kill Deidara and easily control Manda, and that's enough to put Sasuke above the Sannin in their base forms.
base Kisame w/ Samehada
Kisame is here because he'd likely lose against sick Itachi, who we are loosely scaling Curse-Mark 2 Sasuke to.
Canon Biju =~= Sannin in Base
The Sannin in base should be roughly the equivalent of the Biju, tails 1 - 7. I doubt they're much weaker than Kisame.
Note that while Kisame is stated to be relative to Biju, that's largely in-part due to Samehada.
Without Samehada Kisame would've been absolutely curb-stomped by Killer B. To back this up, it should also be noted that Pre-Kage Summit Sasuke when he fought Killer B was able to keep track of Bee in his Version 1 cloak (he couldn't keep track of all of Bee's swords, but he could track Bee's body just fine).
But the Raikage and a similarly cloaked B were too fast for Kisame to keep track of.
6th Gate Guy
As shown in the reasoning for 7th Gate Guy, 6th Gate Guy is shown to at most be relative to base Kisame and even then, base Kisame seemed to overwhelm him Asakujaku vs Water Shark Missile.
This version of Guy is only seen defeating a 30% Clone of Kisame which is...kind of lackluster.
Now, that list might look highly controversial, but it just about pans out. The really tricky bit is 6th Gate Guy because unfortunately, his best feat in series is defeating a 30% Clone of Kisame. I don't really see any reason to believe 6th Gate Guy could've been holding back enough to clear the gap between a 30% Kisame Clone and actual Kisame, especially since Guy seemed to be matched by, and even slightly exceeded, by a base Kisame during their fight on the island and had to resort to the 7th Gate against. Though this does prove that the jump from 6th to 7th gate is massive.
That isn't to say 6th Gate Guy is weak. In fact, I believe this list starts at about mid kage tier and after Curse Mark 2 Sasuke (Itachi Fight), everyone should be roughly Biju tier. By Biju tier, we're referring to the weaker Biju, which are the 7 tails and below. We are not referring to the 8 Tails or 9 Tails who are significantly stronger than the other Biju shown in series.
In fact, the 8 and 9 tails are so much stronger than the other Biju, that Tails 1 through 7 don't even deserve to be called Biju, they're closer to Kage tier.
I think a few places on the list could be swapped around and its up to debate but this is what I came up with after some serious consideration.
I digress though, whatever knitpicks anyone has with this list can be covered later.
Now, I went through all of that in order to set some precedent for how strong certain buffs are in the world of Naruto and thus, how strong they should be in AU.
Since our Biju are equalized, I suggest we say that all Perfect Jinchuriki should be roughly as strong as Killer Bee. This is the absolute highest multiplier that exists in the series prior to the War Arc and would give the Biju the weight they deserve. It would also make the Biju an actual threat and you wouldn't get cases of the Akatsuki bodying them with 0 difficulty.
i.e. Deidara one-shoting the 3 Tails and manhandling Gaara. (This same Deidara then gets killed by Sasuke, which would imply that start of shippuden Sasuke is relative to Biju...which is probably true for tails 1 - 7.) They really don't deserve to be called Biju....
Below Perfect Jinchuriki Biju-mode is a high-tailed version 2 Cloaks (more than half of the full number of tails, i.e. 5 tails and up for the 8-tails, 4 tails and up for the 6 and 7 tails, 3 tails and up for the 5 and 4 tails, 2 tails or greater for the three tails, 1 tail for the two-tails, partial-transformation for the 1-tail.)
Below high tailed version 2 cloaks would be the 8 Gates sans the 8th Gate. i.e. the 7th Gate
(This seems reasonable to me because the 8th Gate will likely never be used, since the consequence is death. The eight would also put a character firmly near the god-tier and above KCM 2 Sage Mode Naruto, only superceded by the likes of 6 Paths Madara, 6 Path Naruto & Sasuke, etc. Since we're trying not to reach War arc levels of broken, I imagine no one's eager to use 8 gates level of power.)
Below 7th Gate is lower tailed version 2 cloaks. (Below half the full number of tails...)
Below version 2 Cloaks would be Sage mode (but not by much).
Below Sage made would be version 1 cloaks and Curse Mark Stage 2s.
So the list of power multipliers would look something like this:
Perfect Jinchuriki (Full Biju Mode)
Version 2 Cloak (High number of tails)
7 Gate
Version 2 Cloak (Low number of tails) >= Sage Mode
Version 1 Cloaks (high number of tails)
Version 1 Cloaks (Low number of tails) = Curse Mark Stage 2
Now based on these estimations I'm going to spitball some numbers at you.
The Curse Mark in Stage 2 is assumed to boost your power roughly 10 times.
The Curse Seals of Heaven & Earth are stronger than the curse marks given to the Sound 4, but we're not sure by how much. So it's somewhere near 10 as well.
Version 1 Cloaks are scaled to the Seals of Heaven & Earth based on Naruto vs Sasuke in the Valley of the end. So we can say a version 1 cloak also boosts its wearers power by around 10 times and that number increases slowly with the number of tails.
Kisame notes that the chakra in Bee's version 2 cloak is more than 9 times larger than in his version 1 state.
This would imply that Version 2 Jinchuriki are near a hundred times stronger than their base? But that's maybe a bit sketch for the level of scaling we want to achieve. I'd suggest we treat everything additively instead of multiplicatively. So instead of multiplying their base by 10 it adds by 10 instead. We might also play with the numbers a bit.
The 8th Gate is stated to increase power by ten fold over ten fold, i.e. 100 times. Hence why the Version 2 being the equivalent of this is a bit sketch.
So if the 8th Gate is x100 the power, and Version 2 cloaks should be somewhere within the realm of 20-30 times the power (depending on the number of tails), then the 7th Gate should be near the middle of the V2 Cloaks. So for now I'll call it 25 times the base power.
Sage mode would be on the lower end of V2 Cloaks, so about 20 times the base power.
Version 1 cloaks would then be about 10-19 times the base power (depending on the number of tails).
Heaven and Earth Curse mark would be around 10-15 times the base power.
Regular Curse Marks would be 10 times the base power.
To re-iterate the list of power ups their respective numbers, it would be:
8th Gate (x100)
Version 2 Cloak (x20-30)
7th Gate (x25)
Sage Mode (x20)
Version 1 Cloak (x10-19)
Curse Mark Stage 2 Heaven & Earth (x15)
Curse Mark Stage 2 [other] (x10)
On the topic of the Gates, it should be noted that Lee opened the 5th Gate
and that still didn't give him enough power to defeat Gaara. Without anything else to bench off of, I can only say the lower gates are somewhere near the equivalent of the Sound 4s curse mark to maybe the high end of version 1? So Gates 1-5 are somewhere around x1-16 maybe? with the 6th Gate being closer to 20.
The power given by the gates rises exponentially with each gate opened, so the boost from the first few gates is smaller compared to the later gates.
It's difficult to scale 6th Gate Guy against Curse Mark 2 Sasuke, because at that point in time I think we can agree Sasuke > Deidara > Guy. So while I think Curse Mark 2 Sasuke is likely stronger than 6th Gate Guy, that might be because Sasuke in base was Kage level while Guy was a Jonin.
I think we should just choose some numbers that fit the purposes of the RP.
That concludes my long ass research paper on power scaling, this took the better part of 5 hours to create.
Let me say a few more things to close though:
1) I am not trying to confirm definitive values on the multiplies in the series. I'm trying to take statements from the series, assume values that seem reasonable, and then suggest we run with those for the RP. We do not know what the correct values for most of these power ups are but since we most definitely need some form of estimate to stop Jinchuriki from getting treated like fodder, people rushing to 8 Gates level of power, etc. etc. I'm suggesting we extrapolate our own values and theses are the values I'm suggesting based on the evidence provided above.
2) Read #1 again. I'm not trying to claim absolute multipliers for the series, I'm suggesting we make our own multipliers in order to make scaling easier and prevent people from getting crazy.
3) For the love of God, read #1 again.
4) Obviously these values may need some ironing out but I think if we get started we can eventually have a working list of what powers and stronger than what and which ones can be stacked without becoming crazy OP.
5) The likes of Nagato and any villain that's supposed to be near his level of strength, are significantly stronger than the Perfect Jinchuriki and giving them multipliers is broken.
Here you see Nagato casually curb-stomping KCM Naruto and Killer B. Might I remind you this is the same KCM Naruto who can create clones at Biju level. This isn't the KCM Naruto that 1v5's the Biju, but this KCM Naruto is without doubt at the very peak of Biju tier.
Nagato, Damos, Haiahu, Orochimaru(?) being in this tier would justify their various feats in RP against Biju and otherwise.
This is shockingly comprehensive, I commented your dedication to this lol. Alrighty, since you lay it out like this it sounds perfectly reasonable. I agree.
Proposal to set the agreed upon power of all Tailed Beasts as relative to the 8 Tails.
After a lengthy and insightful conversation with Retro, we managed to guesstimate a peak level of power that should be roughly accessible to characters. Our general estimations for strength in the series are as follows: (Strongest to Weakest)
8 Tails >= 7th Gate Guy
This is based on their respective fights against Kisame.
Note Kisame almost dying from one hit, only recovering through near-Tsunade level regeneration with Samehada.
Note that 6th Gate Guy says that there are too many of Kisame's sharks, and the duo seem roughly even despite Kisame only being in base. After opening the 7th Gate however, Guy's Hirudora just about one-shots Kisame.
Just based on the damage done to Kisame's body by the attack. Version 2 Killer Bee did more raw damage to Kisame than 7th Gate Guy's Hirudora. So although I'm saying they are roughly equivalent, evidence points to the full Biju mode being stronger. (Considering Killer Bee wasn't in Full Biju mode, just Version 2 mode.)
Samehada-fused Kisame
Samehada-fused Kisame speaks for himself being relative to Killer B in version 2 form and being able to drain the Hachibi of most of it's chakra. It should be mentioned that Killer Bee focused on saving the Racoon and old man and so he wasn't able to fight at full power. He didn't directly engage Samehada-fused Kisame that much, but they're shown as relative to each other with Samehada-fused Kisame holding the advantage because he's faster in water and has OP chakra drain.
6 Tails Naruto
This is the version of Naruto that was kinda taking a dump on Pain and I believe that speaks for itself. The reason Samehada-fused Kisame is listed higher than 6 Tails Naruto is due to the OP chakra drain that Samehada allows. Being able to almost completely drain the Hachibi of chakra in about 5 or so hits.
Sage Naruto
Sage Mode Naruto should also speak for himself given his battle with Pain. It should be noted, that Zetsu implies that Sage Naruto is stronger than MS Sasuke prior to the 5 Kage Summit. Sage Naruto should be roughly around the level of one of the 5 Kage and the 5 Kage are most assuredly stronger than Sasuke at this point.
Ay could evade Amaterasu and his speed was more than Sasuke could physically keep up with. This is not the same as Sasuke couldn't react to Ay, because Sasuke did react to Ay. However, the only thing Sasuke could do in time was summon his Susano. Sasuke was little more than Ay's rag-doll until he started protecting himself with Amaterasu. This was not Sasuke caught Ay off guard with the Amaterasu or anything of the sort, Ay just charged into the Amaterasu causes he's pretty reckless like that.
Onoki likewise would've killed Sasuke, however, Obito saved him before particle style could obliterate him.
Mei likewise would've killed Sasuke, because her acid techniques were eating through his Susano. No, Sasuke being fatigued doesn't make it plausible that a fully powered Sasuke could've resisted the acid mist because Mei also corroded Madara's Susano.
Gaara might would have also likely been able to kill Sasuke because, as noted during the war arc, the bottom of a skeletal Susano (Sasuke doesn't get armored Susano until he fights Danzo) is not protected. Gaara was able to pull Madara from his Susano and probably could've done the same to Sasuke. In addition, Gaara's sand was fast enough to intercept Amaterasu.
Danzo was evidently a rival for Sasuke at this point, however, there's something that must be pointed out.
It is implied throughout the arc that Sasuke is growing stronger as his Mangekyou rapidly matures and his hatred draws out more power. By the end of this arc Karin notes that Sasuke's chakra feels even more sinister than it did in his Curse Mark stage 2 form and we can also see as Sasuke advances from just a rib-cage Susano (Against Ay) to a full-bodied armored Susano (Against Danzo), in a matter of hours.
Sannin at Full Power
This one is debatable. Naruto is stated to have surpassed Jiraiya in Sage mode, and I'm assuming Sage Jiraiya is relative to the other Sannin in their respective full-power modes. The full power modes are:
Sage Mode Jiraiya + Ma & Pa
Hundred Healings Tsunade
8 Branches Orochimaru. (The 8 headed snake form he took right before being one-shot by Itachi)
In any case, if you think the Sannin at full power are stronger than Sage Naruto then that's fine. The gap between Sage Naruto and the Sannin at full power shouldn't be that large however.
4 Tails Naruto
4 Tails Naruto was able to slap around Orochimaru, however, it should be noted that Orochimaru was weakened at the time. That being said, I don't believe Orochimaru in peak form (base), would be strong enough to take on 4 tails Naruto. It should be noted that he was slapped around for the whole fight and managed to accomplish nothing except not getting killed.
Orochimaru himself says that a direct hit from 4-tail Naruto's Biju bomb would kill him.
Yes, Orochimaru managed to 'block' the attack with the Rashamon but...
The Biju bomb vaporizes all three Rashamon and still has enough power to do that to Orochimaru, on top of devastating the surroundings.
Curse Mark 2 Sasuke (Itachi fight)
This version of Sasuke is roughly relative to a sick and dying Itachi. That sick and dying Itachi is still a force to be reckoned with though as he promptly one-shots Orochimaru with hax. However, since Sasuke does not have access to such hax as the Totsuka Blade, he falls somewhere below 4 tails Naruto. Strong enough to kill an Orochimaru who was even weaker than the version that fight on par with a near-death Itachi who wasn't trying to kill him.
This puts him above the Sannin (base), since Itachi, without his MS, was able to thoroughly humiliate Orochimaru to the point where the latter ran away from the Akatsuki. This is a stronger version of Itachi than the one that Sasuke fought but this Sasuke was able to kill Deidara and easily control Manda, and that's enough to put Sasuke above the Sannin in their base forms.
base Kisame w/ Samehada
Kisame is here because he'd likely lose against sick Itachi, who we are loosely scaling Curse-Mark 2 Sasuke to.
Canon Biju =~= Sannin in Base
The Sannin in base should be roughly the equivalent of the Biju, tails 1 - 7. I doubt they're much weaker than Kisame.
Note that while Kisame is stated to be relative to Biju, that's largely in-part due to Samehada.
Without Samehada Kisame would've been absolutely curb-stomped by Killer B. To back this up, it should also be noted that Pre-Kage Summit Sasuke when he fought Killer B was able to keep track of Bee in his Version 1 cloak (he couldn't keep track of all of Bee's swords, but he could track Bee's body just fine).
But the Raikage and a similarly cloaked B were too fast for Kisame to keep track of.
6th Gate Guy
As shown in the reasoning for 7th Gate Guy, 6th Gate Guy is shown to at most be relative to base Kisame and even then, base Kisame seemed to overwhelm him Asakujaku vs Water Shark Missile.
This version of Guy is only seen defeating a 30% Clone of Kisame which is...kind of lackluster.
Now, that list might look highly controversial, but it just about pans out. The really tricky bit is 6th Gate Guy because unfortunately, his best feat in series is defeating a 30% Clone of Kisame. I don't really see any reason to believe 6th Gate Guy could've been holding back enough to clear the gap between a 30% Kisame Clone and actual Kisame, especially since Guy seemed to be matched by, and even slightly exceeded, by a base Kisame during their fight on the island and had to resort to the 7th Gate against. Though this does prove that the jump from 6th to 7th gate is massive.
That isn't to say 6th Gate Guy is weak. In fact, I believe this list starts at about mid kage tier and after Curse Mark 2 Sasuke (Itachi Fight), everyone should be roughly Biju tier. By Biju tier, we're referring to the weaker Biju, which are the 7 tails and below. We are not referring to the 8 Tails or 9 Tails who are significantly stronger than the other Biju shown in series.
In fact, the 8 and 9 tails are so much stronger than the other Biju, that Tails 1 through 7 don't even deserve to be called Biju, they're closer to Kage tier.
I think a few places on the list could be swapped around and its up to debate but this is what I came up with after some serious consideration.
I digress though, whatever knitpicks anyone has with this list can be covered later.
Now, I went through all of that in order to set some precedent for how strong certain buffs are in the world of Naruto and thus, how strong they should be in AU.
Since our Biju are equalized, I suggest we say that all Perfect Jinchuriki should be roughly as strong as Killer Bee. This is the absolute highest multiplier that exists in the series prior to the War Arc and would give the Biju the weight they deserve. It would also make the Biju an actual threat and you wouldn't get cases of the Akatsuki bodying them with 0 difficulty.
i.e. Deidara one-shoting the 3 Tails and manhandling Gaara. (This same Deidara then gets killed by Sasuke, which would imply that start of shippuden Sasuke is relative to Biju...which is probably true for tails 1 - 7.) They really don't deserve to be called Biju....
Below Perfect Jinchuriki Biju-mode is a high-tailed version 2 Cloaks (more than half of the full number of tails, i.e. 5 tails and up for the 8-tails, 4 tails and up for the 6 and 7 tails, 3 tails and up for the 5 and 4 tails, 2 tails or greater for the three tails, 1 tail for the two-tails, partial-transformation for the 1-tail.)
Below high tailed version 2 cloaks would be the 8 Gates sans the 8th Gate. i.e. the 7th Gate
(This seems reasonable to me because the 8th Gate will likely never be used, since the consequence is death. The eight would also put a character firmly near the god-tier and above KCM 2 Sage Mode Naruto, only superceded by the likes of 6 Paths Madara, 6 Path Naruto & Sasuke, etc. Since we're trying not to reach War arc levels of broken, I imagine no one's eager to use 8 gates level of power.)
Below 7th Gate is lower tailed version 2 cloaks. (Below half the full number of tails...)
Below version 2 Cloaks would be Sage mode (but not by much).
Below Sage made would be version 1 cloaks and Curse Mark Stage 2s.
So the list of power multipliers would look something like this:
Perfect Jinchuriki (Full Biju Mode)
Version 2 Cloak (High number of tails)
7 Gate
Version 2 Cloak (Low number of tails) >= Sage Mode
Version 1 Cloaks (high number of tails)
Version 1 Cloaks (Low number of tails) = Curse Mark Stage 2
Now based on these estimations I'm going to spitball some numbers at you.
The Curse Mark in Stage 2 is assumed to boost your power roughly 10 times.
The Curse Seals of Heaven & Earth are stronger than the curse marks given to the Sound 4, but we're not sure by how much. So it's somewhere near 10 as well.
Version 1 Cloaks are scaled to the Seals of Heaven & Earth based on Naruto vs Sasuke in the Valley of the end. So we can say a version 1 cloak also boosts its wearers power by around 10 times and that number increases slowly with the number of tails.
Kisame notes that the chakra in Bee's version 2 cloak is more than 9 times larger than in his version 1 state.
This would imply that Version 2 Jinchuriki are near a hundred times stronger than their base? But that's maybe a bit sketch for the level of scaling we want to achieve. I'd suggest we treat everything additively instead of multiplicatively. So instead of multiplying their base by 10 it adds by 10 instead. We might also play with the numbers a bit.
The 8th Gate is stated to increase power by ten fold over ten fold, i.e. 100 times. Hence why the Version 2 being the equivalent of this is a bit sketch.
So if the 8th Gate is x100 the power, and Version 2 cloaks should be somewhere within the realm of 20-30 times the power (depending on the number of tails), then the 7th Gate should be near the middle of the V2 Cloaks. So for now I'll call it 25 times the base power.
Sage mode would be on the lower end of V2 Cloaks, so about 20 times the base power.
Version 1 cloaks would then be about 10-19 times the base power (depending on the number of tails).
Heaven and Earth Curse mark would be around 10-15 times the base power.
Regular Curse Marks would be 10 times the base power.
To re-iterate the list of power ups their respective numbers, it would be:
8th Gate (x100)
Version 2 Cloak (x20-30)
7th Gate (x25)
Sage Mode (x20)
Version 1 Cloak (x10-19)
Curse Mark Stage 2 Heaven & Earth (x15)
Curse Mark Stage 2 [other] (x10)
On the topic of the Gates, it should be noted that Lee opened the 5th Gate
and that still didn't give him enough power to defeat Gaara. Without anything else to bench off of, I can only say the lower gates are somewhere near the equivalent of the Sound 4s curse mark to maybe the high end of version 1? So Gates 1-5 are somewhere around x1-16 maybe? with the 6th Gate being closer to 20.
The power given by the gates rises exponentially with each gate opened, so the boost from the first few gates is smaller compared to the later gates.
It's difficult to scale 6th Gate Guy against Curse Mark 2 Sasuke, because at that point in time I think we can agree Sasuke > Deidara > Guy. So while I think Curse Mark 2 Sasuke is likely stronger than 6th Gate Guy, that might be because Sasuke in base was Kage level while Guy was a Jonin.
I think we should just choose some numbers that fit the purposes of the RP.
That concludes my long ass research paper on power scaling, this took the better part of 5 hours to create.
Let me say a few more things to close though:
1) I am not trying to confirm definitive values on the multiplies in the series. I'm trying to take statements from the series, assume values that seem reasonable, and then suggest we run with those for the RP. We do not know what the correct values for most of these power ups are but since we most definitely need some form of estimate to stop Jinchuriki from getting treated like fodder, people rushing to 8 Gates level of power, etc. etc. I'm suggesting we extrapolate our own values and theses are the values I'm suggesting based on the evidence provided above.
2) Read #1 again. I'm not trying to claim absolute multipliers for the series, I'm suggesting we make our own multipliers in order to make scaling easier and prevent people from getting crazy.
3) For the love of God, read #1 again.
4) Obviously these values may need some ironing out but I think if we get started we can eventually have a working list of what powers and stronger than what and which ones can be stacked without becoming crazy OP.
5) The likes of Nagato and any villain that's supposed to be near his level of strength, are significantly stronger than the Perfect Jinchuriki and giving them multipliers is broken.
Here you see Nagato casually curb-stomping KCM Naruto and Killer B. Might I remind you this is the same KCM Naruto who can create clones at Biju level. This isn't the KCM Naruto that 1v5's the Biju, but this KCM Naruto is without doubt at the very peak of Biju tier.
Nagato, Damos, Haiahu, Orochimaru(?) being in this tier would justify their various feats in RP against Biju and otherwise.
Proposal to set the agreed upon power of all Tailed Beasts as relative to the 8 Tails.
After a lengthy and insightful conversation with Retro, we managed to guesstimate a peak level of power that should be roughly accessible to characters. Our general estimations for strength in the series are as follows: (Strongest to Weakest)
8 Tails >= 7th Gate Guy
This is based on their respective fights against Kisame.
Note Kisame almost dying from one hit, only recovering through near-Tsunade level regeneration with Samehada.
Note that 6th Gate Guy says that there are too many of Kisame's sharks, and the duo seem roughly even despite Kisame only being in base. After opening the 7th Gate however, Guy's Hirudora just about one-shots Kisame.
Just based on the damage done to Kisame's body by the attack. Version 2 Killer Bee did more raw damage to Kisame than 7th Gate Guy's Hirudora. So although I'm saying they are roughly equivalent, evidence points to the full Biju mode being stronger. (Considering Killer Bee wasn't in Full Biju mode, just Version 2 mode.)
Samehada-fused Kisame
Samehada-fused Kisame speaks for himself being relative to Killer B in version 2 form and being able to drain the Hachibi of most of it's chakra. It should be mentioned that Killer Bee focused on saving the Racoon and old man and so he wasn't able to fight at full power. He didn't directly engage Samehada-fused Kisame that much, but they're shown as relative to each other with Samehada-fused Kisame holding the advantage because he's faster in water and has OP chakra drain.
6 Tails Naruto
This is the version of Naruto that was kinda taking a dump on Pain and I believe that speaks for itself. The reason Samehada-fused Kisame is listed higher than 6 Tails Naruto is due to the OP chakra drain that Samehada allows. Being able to almost completely drain the Hachibi of chakra in about 5 or so hits.
Sage Naruto
Sage Mode Naruto should also speak for himself given his battle with Pain. It should be noted, that Zetsu implies that Sage Naruto is stronger than MS Sasuke prior to the 5 Kage Summit. Sage Naruto should be roughly around the level of one of the 5 Kage and the 5 Kage are most assuredly stronger than Sasuke at this point.
Ay could evade Amaterasu and his speed was more than Sasuke could physically keep up with. This is not the same as Sasuke couldn't react to Ay, because Sasuke did react to Ay. However, the only thing Sasuke could do in time was summon his Susano. Sasuke was little more than Ay's rag-doll until he started protecting himself with Amaterasu. This was not Sasuke caught Ay off guard with the Amaterasu or anything of the sort, Ay just charged into the Amaterasu causes he's pretty reckless like that.
Onoki likewise would've killed Sasuke, however, Obito saved him before particle style could obliterate him.
Mei likewise would've killed Sasuke, because her acid techniques were eating through his Susano. No, Sasuke being fatigued doesn't make it plausible that a fully powered Sasuke could've resisted the acid mist because Mei also corroded Madara's Susano.
Gaara might would have also likely been able to kill Sasuke because, as noted during the war arc, the bottom of a skeletal Susano (Sasuke doesn't get armored Susano until he fights Danzo) is not protected. Gaara was able to pull Madara from his Susano and probably could've done the same to Sasuke. In addition, Gaara's sand was fast enough to intercept Amaterasu.
Danzo was evidently a rival for Sasuke at this point, however, there's something that must be pointed out.
It is implied throughout the arc that Sasuke is growing stronger as his Mangekyou rapidly matures and his hatred draws out more power. By the end of this arc Karin notes that Sasuke's chakra feels even more sinister than it did in his Curse Mark stage 2 form and we can also see as Sasuke advances from just a rib-cage Susano (Against Ay) to a full-bodied armored Susano (Against Danzo), in a matter of hours.
Sannin at Full Power
This one is debatable. Naruto is stated to have surpassed Jiraiya in Sage mode, and I'm assuming Sage Jiraiya is relative to the other Sannin in their respective full-power modes. The full power modes are:
Sage Mode Jiraiya + Ma & Pa
Hundred Healings Tsunade
8 Branches Orochimaru. (The 8 headed snake form he took right before being one-shot by Itachi)
In any case, if you think the Sannin at full power are stronger than Sage Naruto then that's fine. The gap between Sage Naruto and the Sannin at full power shouldn't be that large however.
4 Tails Naruto
4 Tails Naruto was able to slap around Orochimaru, however, it should be noted that Orochimaru was weakened at the time. That being said, I don't believe Orochimaru in peak form (base), would be strong enough to take on 4 tails Naruto. It should be noted that he was slapped around for the whole fight and managed to accomplish nothing except not getting killed.
Orochimaru himself says that a direct hit from 4-tail Naruto's Biju bomb would kill him.
Yes, Orochimaru managed to 'block' the attack with the Rashamon but...
The Biju bomb vaporizes all three Rashamon and still has enough power to do that to Orochimaru, on top of devastating the surroundings.
Curse Mark 2 Sasuke (Itachi fight)
This version of Sasuke is roughly relative to a sick and dying Itachi. That sick and dying Itachi is still a force to be reckoned with though as he promptly one-shots Orochimaru with hax. However, since Sasuke does not have access to such hax as the Totsuka Blade, he falls somewhere below 4 tails Naruto. Strong enough to kill an Orochimaru who was even weaker than the version that fought 4-Tails Naruto and to fight on par with a near-death Itachi who wasn't trying to kill him.
This puts him above the Sannin (base), since Itachi, without his MS, was able to thoroughly humiliate Orochimaru to the point where the latter ran away from the Akatsuki. The version of Itachi that beat Orochimaru is a stronger version of Itachi than the one that Sasuke fought but this Sasuke was able to kill Deidara and easily control Manda, and that's enough to put Sasuke above the Sannin in their base forms.
base Kisame w/ Samehada
Kisame is here because he'd likely lose against sick Itachi, who we are loosely scaling Curse-Mark 2 Sasuke to.
Canon Biju =~= Sannin in Base
The Sannin in base should be roughly the equivalent of the Biju, tails 1 - 7. I doubt they're much weaker than Kisame.
Note that while Kisame is stated to be relative to Biju, that's largely in-part due to Samehada.
Without Samehada Kisame would've been absolutely curb-stomped by Killer B. To back this up, it should also be noted that Pre-Kage Summit Sasuke when he fought Killer B was able to keep track of Bee in his Version 1 cloak (he couldn't keep track of all of Bee's swords, but he could track Bee's body just fine).
But the Raikage and a similarly cloaked B were too fast for Kisame to keep track of.
6th Gate Guy
As shown in the reasoning for 7th Gate Guy, 6th Gate Guy is shown to at most be relative to base Kisame and even then, base Kisame seemed to overwhelm him Asakujaku vs Water Shark Missile.
This version of Guy is only seen defeating a 30% Clone of Kisame which is...kind of lackluster.
Now, that list might look highly controversial, but it just about pans out. The really tricky bit is 6th Gate Guy because unfortunately, his best feat in series is defeating a 30% Clone of Kisame. I don't really see any reason to believe 6th Gate Guy could've been holding back enough to clear the gap between a 30% Kisame Clone and actual Kisame, especially since Guy seemed to be matched by, and even slightly exceeded, by a base Kisame during their fight on the island and had to resort to the 7th Gate against. Though this does prove that the jump from 6th to 7th gate is massive.
That isn't to say 6th Gate Guy is weak. In fact, I believe this list starts at about mid kage tier and after Curse Mark 2 Sasuke (Itachi Fight), everyone should be roughly Biju tier. By Biju tier, we're referring to the weaker Biju, which are the 7 tails and below. We are not referring to the 8 Tails or 9 Tails who are significantly stronger than the other Biju shown in series.
In fact, the 8 and 9 tails are so much stronger than the other Biju, that Tails 1 through 7 don't even deserve to be called Biju, they're closer to Kage tier.
I think a few places on the list could be swapped around and its up to debate but this is what I came up with after some serious consideration.
I digress though, whatever knitpicks anyone has with this list can be covered later.
Now, I went through all of that in order to set some precedent for how strong certain buffs are in the world of Naruto and thus, how strong they should be in AU.
Since our Biju are equalized, I suggest we say that all Perfect Jinchuriki should be roughly as strong as Killer Bee. This is the absolute highest multiplier that exists in the series prior to the War Arc and would give the Biju the weight they deserve. It would also make the Biju an actual threat and you wouldn't get cases of the Akatsuki bodying them with 0 difficulty.
i.e. Deidara one-shoting the 3 Tails and manhandling Gaara. (This same Deidara then gets killed by Sasuke, which would imply that start of shippuden Sasuke is relative to Biju...which is probably true for tails 1 - 7.) They really don't deserve to be called Biju....
Below Perfect Jinchuriki Biju-mode is a high-tailed version 2 Cloaks (more than half of the full number of tails, i.e. 5 tails and up for the 8-tails, 4 tails and up for the 6 and 7 tails, 3 tails and up for the 5 and 4 tails, 2 tails or greater for the three tails, 1 tail for the two-tails, partial-transformation for the 1-tail.)
Below high tailed version 2 cloaks would be the 8 Gates sans the 8th Gate. i.e. the 7th Gate
(This seems reasonable to me because the 8th Gate will likely never be used, since the consequence is death. The eight would also put a character firmly near the god-tier and above KCM 2 Sage Mode Naruto, only superceded by the likes of 6 Paths Madara, 6 Path Naruto & Sasuke, etc. Since we're trying not to reach War arc levels of broken, I imagine no one's eager to use 8 gates level of power.)
Below 7th Gate is lower tailed version 2 cloaks. (Below half the full number of tails...)
Below version 2 Cloaks would be Sage mode (but not by much).
Below Sage made would be version 1 cloaks and Curse Mark Stage 2s.
So the list of power multipliers would look something like this:
Perfect Jinchuriki (Full Biju Mode)
Version 2 Cloak (High number of tails)
7 Gate
Version 2 Cloak (Low number of tails) >= Sage Mode
Version 1 Cloaks (high number of tails)
Version 1 Cloaks (Low number of tails) = Curse Mark Stage 2
Now based on these estimations I'm going to spitball some numbers at you.
The Curse Mark in Stage 2 is assumed to boost your power roughly 10 times.
The Curse Seals of Heaven & Earth are stronger than the curse marks given to the Sound 4, but we're not sure by how much. So it's somewhere near 10 as well.
Version 1 Cloaks are scaled to the Seals of Heaven & Earth based on Naruto vs Sasuke in the Valley of the end. So we can say a version 1 cloak also boosts its wearers power by around 10 times and that number increases slowly with the number of tails.
Kisame notes that the chakra in Bee's version 2 cloak is more than 9 times larger than in his version 1 state.
This would imply that Version 2 Jinchuriki are near a hundred times stronger than their base? But that's maybe a bit sketch for the level of scaling we want to achieve. I'd suggest we treat everything additively instead of multiplicatively. So instead of multiplying their base by 10 it adds by 10 instead. We might also play with the numbers a bit.
The 8th Gate is stated to increase power by ten fold over ten fold, i.e. 100 times. Hence why the Version 2 being the equivalent of this is a bit sketch.
So if the 8th Gate is x100 the power, and Version 2 cloaks should be somewhere within the realm of 20-30 times the power (depending on the number of tails), then the 7th Gate should be near the middle of the V2 Cloaks. So for now I'll call it 25 times the base power.
Sage mode would be on the lower end of V2 Cloaks, so about 20 times the base power.
Version 1 cloaks would then be about 10-19 times the base power (depending on the number of tails).
Heaven and Earth Curse mark would be around 10-15 times the base power.
Regular Curse Marks would be 10 times the base power.
To re-iterate the list of power ups their respective numbers, it would be:
8th Gate (x100)
Full Biju Mode (x30-35)
Version 2 Cloak (x20-30)
7th Gate (x25)
Sage Mode (x20)
Version 1 Cloak (x10-19)
Curse Mark Stage 2 Heaven & Earth (x15)
Curse Mark Stage 2 [other] (x10)
On the topic of the Gates, it should be noted that Lee opened the 5th Gate
and that still didn't give him enough power to defeat Gaara. Without anything else to bench off of, I can only say the lower gates are somewhere near the equivalent of the Sound 4s curse mark to maybe the high end of version 1? So Gates 1-5 are somewhere around x1-16 maybe? with the 6th Gate being closer to 20.
The power given by the gates rises exponentially with each gate opened, so the boost from the first few gates is smaller compared to the later gates.
It's difficult to scale 6th Gate Guy against Curse Mark 2 Sasuke, because at that point in time I think we can agree Sasuke > Deidara > Guy. So while I think Curse Mark 2 Sasuke is likely stronger than 6th Gate Guy, that might be because Sasuke in base was Kage level while Guy was a Jonin.
I think we should just choose some numbers that fit the purposes of the RP.
That concludes my long ass research paper on power scaling, this took the better part of 5 hours to create.
Let me say a few more things to close though:
1) I am not trying to confirm definitive values on the multiplies in the series. I'm trying to take statements from the series, assume values that seem reasonable, and then suggest we run with those for the RP. We do not know what the correct values for most of these power ups are but since we most definitely need some form of estimate to stop Jinchuriki from getting treated like fodder, people rushing to 8 Gates level of power, etc. etc. I'm suggesting we extrapolate our own values and theses are the values I'm suggesting based on the evidence provided above.
2) Read #1 again. I'm not trying to claim absolute multipliers for the series, I'm suggesting we make our own multipliers in order to make scaling easier and prevent people from getting crazy.
3) For the love of God, read #1 again.
4) Obviously these values may need some ironing out but I think if we get started we can eventually have a working list of what powers and stronger than what and which ones can be stacked without becoming crazy OP.
5) The likes of Nagato and any villain that's supposed to be near his level of strength, are significantly stronger than the Perfect Jinchuriki and giving them multipliers is broken.
Here you see Nagato casually curb-stomping KCM Naruto and Killer B. Might I remind you this is the same KCM Naruto who can create clones at Biju level. This isn't the KCM Naruto that 1v5's the Biju, but this KCM Naruto is without doubt at the very peak of Biju tier.
Nagato, Damos, Haiahu, Orochimaru(?) being in this tier would justify their various feats in RP against Biju and otherwise.
The hell did I miss on Discord!? XD excellent write up.
Though it should be noted Six Gate Guy did not just "barley" overpower 30% Kisame's Shark Missile. He completely parted the ocean he was trapped under and completely overwhelmed 30% Kisame.
The hell did I miss on Discord!? XD excellent write up.
Though it should be noted Six Gate Guy did not just "barley" overpower 30% Kisame's Shark Missile. He completely parted the ocean he was trapped under and completely overwhelmed 30% Kisame.
I mean, I always presumed even Base Guy and Kakashi were stronger than the average Jonin XD. They are considered Konoha's elite among the Jonin crop in-universe.
But is this base Kakashi in Part 1 or 2? Cause Base Kakashi seemed to get a jump in Part 2 as he is better able to hang with 30% Itachi then the previous "I am really not trying guys" Itachi when they first fought.
I mean, I always presumed even Base Guy and Kakashi were stronger than the average Jonin XD. They are considered Konoha's elite among the Jonin crop in-universe.
But is this base Kakashi in Part 1 or 2? Cause Base Kakashi seemed to get a jump in Part 2 as he is better able to hang with 30% Itachi then the previous "I am really not trying guys" Itachi when they first fought.
Just goes to show how significant the power gaps can be when you get to Jonin and Kage.
Every entry on my list is at minimum a Kage-level fighter approximately.
Base Kakashi in Part 1 & early Part 2. I think Kakashi hits Kage level in base at around the Pain arc, where he has a lot more leverage with his chakra and isn't put in the hospital after using an in-accurate Kamui once. You could also be a bit more lenient and say that the Kakashi that fought Hidan and Kakuzu is Kage-level, but the fight he has against Tendou Pain and the Asura path give him a more concrete platform.
To give an estimation of Jonin rank...the Proctors (pseudo-Jonin), who fought the Sound 4 while exhausted. They're be the start of Jonin rank, and then shippuden Kakashi (who fought Deidara, Hidan & Kakuzu) should be closer to the peak of Jonin. The Kakashi that fought Pain is Kage level.
Everyone between the level of Kakashi (Pain Arc) and the Six Paths of Pain, is Kage level(!!) and true Biju level starts at 6 Tails Naruto and up.
(!!) - This statement acknowledged the 1 through 6 tails as only Kage level even while fully transformed.
Just goes to show how significant the power gaps can be when you get to Jonin and Kage.
Every entry on my list is at minimum a Kage-level fighter approximately.
Base Kakashi in Part 1 & early Part 2. I think Kakashi hits Kage level in base at around the Pain arc, where he has a lot more leverage with his chakra and isn't put in the hospital after using an in-accurate Kamui once. You could also be a bit more lenient and say that the Kakashi that fought Hidan and Kakuzu is Kage-level, but the fight he has against Tendou Pain and the Asura path give him a more concrete platform.
To give an estimation of Jonin rank...the Proctors (pseudo-Jonin), who fought the Sound 4 while exhausted. They're be the start of Jonin rank, and then shippuden Kakashi (who fought Deidara, Hidan & Kakuzu) should be closer to the peak of Jonin. The Kakashi that fought Pain is Kage level.
Everyone between the level of Kakashi (Pain Arc) and the Six Paths of Pain, is Kage level(!!) and true Biju level starts at 6 Tails Naruto and up.
(!!) - This statement acknowledged the 1 through 6 tails as only Kage level even while fully transformed.
People actually argue Kakashi is already Kage Tier off Part 1 with a "Kakashi>Tsunade" argument given Tsunade's shit performance against Kabuto comparative to Kakashi who Kabuto had to bounce from.
People actually argue Kakashi is already Kage Tier off Part 1 with a "Kakashi>Tsunade" argument given Tsunade's shit performance against Kabuto comparative to Kakashi who Kabuto had to bounce from.
Thats more so Tsunade being Jonin tier. Tsunade has less raw combat feats than early shippuden Sakura, the latter of whom was shown to be able to keep up with Sasori on her own merit.
It's just that the Byakugou seal is a pretty big boost.
Thats more so Tsunade being Jonin tier. Tsunade has less raw combat feats than early shippuden Sakura, the latter of whom was shown to be able to keep up with Sasori on her own merit. Least till Kishi decided Sasori needed to be protected and revealed he was holding back and willingly died to them.
It's just that the Byakugou seal is a pretty big boost.
Well, now that we've established some semblance of proper scaling, I'm going back to sleep.
@Retro Master prepare your thesis on LCM or some relative power up. It seems to scale towards version 1 cloaks, though the Raikage have been known to fight the Biju in it. Albeit, I don't think it has as big of a boost as full on Biju mode since the Raikage tend to be ridiculously strong in base.
While we're on the topic of buffs, I'm contractually obligated as Taiyo's RPer to ask where FBS should fall on the scale relative to other buffs. And if need be, make modifications to ensure my buff isn't pathetically weak in the grand scheme of things. I will defer to @kyuukestu since he's taken the most responsibility in the scaling effort and I'd probably ask him first anyway :/
While we're on the topic of buffs, I'm contractually obligated as Taiyo's RPer to ask where FBS should fall on the scale relative to other buffs. And if need be, make modifications to ensure my buff isn't pathetically weak in the grand scheme of things. I will defer to @kyuukestu since he's taken the most responsibility in the scaling effort and I'd probably ask him first anyway :/
Well, that's what I want to address next. OC created buffs are fairly unique, so I've gotta ask. Where would you like your technique to be on the list?
Well, that's what I want to address next. OC created buffs are fairly unique, so I've gotta ask. Where would you like your technique to be on the list?
Think I want endgame FBS to be at Sage Mode Levels if not 7th Gate levels. As of now, I think curse mark stage 2 levels of strength is sufficient. I'd also like to know how strong I'm allowed to become xD
Think I want endgame FBS to be at Sage Mode Levels if not 7th Gate levels. As of now, I think curse mark stage 2 levels of strength is sufficient. I'd also like to know how strong I'm allowed to become xD
The idea was to not surpass the pain arc, though I doubt that's still in play. If all the OCs became as strong as Pain then, given how strong the villains we have are, we would be thoroughly slaughtered by them even if we all came at them together. In my opinion the power ceiling being at 8 Gates is fine; but, keep in mind the draw-backs of such techniques are certain death. It feels like something that'd be reserved for some dramatic finale.
In my estimation characters will want to orbit Sage Mode - Perfect Jinchuriki levels; but, if you intend to do anything more than barely survive the fight however, you'll generally want to be within 5-10 multipliers of your opponent. That would keep characters within a general 'realm'.
However, keep in mind I'm only speaking about flat multipliers and I am not accounting for differences in base abilities and specializations.
EDIT:
And I should note that base stats and specializations can make up for massive gaps in power. E.g. If you specialization is offense, you've got at x35 multiplier, and can toss out attacks that can turn mountains to dust, but your opponent is speed oriented, with only a x10 multiplier, but can run 5 circles around you before you can blink, then you're probably going to get a thrashing.
Alrighty, a reminder where all the Jinchuriki are currently:
One tails- Akatsuki
Two tails- Rogue
Three tails - Kumo hands
Four tails- Rogue / Iwa
Five tails- Rouge- Land of Rivers
Six tails: Suna hands
Seven tails- Rogue
Eight tails- Iwa hands
Nine tails- Leaf hands
For the benefit of whoever needs it, let's discuss the tiers of power in Naruto and then re-affirm what power-ceiling we'll place on the RP.
The level of power we threw out at the start of the Role Play was the Pain Arc. Which meant the strongest attacks in the series are the likes of:
Chaotic Almighty Push
Rasenshuriken
Kirin
Deidara's 10 km C0 explosion
Kisame's 30% clone turning a desert canyon into a lake in a matter of seconds
Tailed Beast Ball
etc.
All nice, girthy, and fancy attacks. There are undoubtedly more, but these well-establish the power of people who are considered Kage-tier fighters.
Killer B is a Perfect Jinchuriki, so we could call him Biju Tier but likewise, Pain would be Biju-Tier. However, it should also be noted that Nagato is significantly stronger than Pain and AU Nagato is significantly stronger than Pain-Arc Nagato. Pain Arc Nagato was half-crippled (our Nagato was not crippled by the Gedo Statue) and was decently exhausted from fighting the entire Leaf Village and even after all that, the Deva Path alone was able to force the Naruto to the 8th Tail. This is very impressive because Nagato's abilities are severely weakened by the distance between himself and his paths. Pain had to get closer to Nagato to perform this feat, but it should still be below something that the crippled Nagato could've done directly. AU Nagato is, for all intents and purposes, above the Pain-Arc in terms of power. He'd scale closer to War-Arc Edo Nagato, the one who was curb-stomping two perfect Jinchuriki at the same time.
Now keep in mind that Edo Nagato is even weaker than a healthyalive Nagato would've been and Kabuto was absolute ass-cheeks at using the Rinnegan. An alive Nagato is the kind of character that could fight KCM Naruto, Killer B, and Prime Itachi, all at the same time, and probably still win.
This would put AU Nagato handily above Biju-tier. We'd honestly need a new tier name just to describe how much stronger he is than everyone else in the series. This is the guy that our end-game villains are scaling to and we need to consider that seriously.
Unless your character whips out something on the level of the 8 Gates, there's no stopping Nagato one vs one.
Also note, this DOES NOT mean that Nagato can insta-kill the 5 Kage whenever he wants. But it does mean when fighting him they probably lose 8 or 9 times out of 10. Nagato is fast enough to tag LCM Ay, has Preta Path to nullify almost anything Mei and Onoki can do, the Deva path handily repels all of Gaara's sand, and if Tsunade gets close to him then he might just rip her soul out. It is a delicate fight for both sides though and a sloppy Nagato will get his ass whooped.
Every member of the Akatuski (except Hidan and Konan) is very comfortably Kage Tier.
The above is what a Kage-tier can accomplish given the jutsu and chakra pool. Not everyone has Biju-level chakra reserves like Kisame, so not everyone can effortlessly turn a desert into a lake, but keep in mind, this was only a 30% clone of Kisame, and pretty much all Kage-tiers should scale at or above 30% Kisame.
Now let's talk about tiers themselves and what that means. When you're within a tier, you're relative to most, if not all, other people within that tier.
One on One everyone in the Kage tier should be able to put up some level of meaningful resistance. They're supposed to be relative to each other, after all.
Examples being:
Speed
Yes, Ay is significantly faster than most other people in Kage-tier. Does this mean he could effortlessly blitz them and they wouldn't even have time to react? No. As an example, Kage Summit Sasuke was not able to physically keep up with Ay at full power (he matched and outmaneuvered the base LCM with his Sharingan), but he was able to react to him with Jutsu, namely the Susano and Amaterasu. And just in case you think this is unique to the Sharingan, Onoki, during the 5-Kage fight with Madara, was able to react in time to apply Lighten-Rock weight and Added-Rock weight to Ay so that he could break through Madara's Susano. Note, this Ay was even faster than usual because of the Lightning-Rock weight.
Even if you still don't agree that all people within a tier should be somewhat relative in all respects, I cannot stress enough that it is something that should be implemented within the RP. If, within the same tier, there is a massive, insurmountable gap between critical stats, 'My character blitzes and wins gg' becomes a valid argument.
This necessity is limited to within the same tier. If a fight occurs between characters in two different tiers then blitzes and insta-wins become a lot easier to justify depending on the approach and specializations of those characters.
Also, note the existence of unique/hax abilities that aren't on a linear scale:
Tsukuyomi
Kotoamatsukami
Deidara's Micro-Bombs
Totsuka Blade
Yata Mirror
Anything Itachi spits on
Sasori's Poison
Kamui
etc.
These are incomparable. They don't work by raw power or speed or whatever. Almost all of them are one-shot techniques that are borderline broken and can't be handled in a normal way.
Also, note the existence of unique/hax abilities that aren't on a linear scale:
Tsukuyomi
Kotoamatsukami
Deidara's Micro-Bombs
Totsuka Blade
Yata Mirror Anything Itachi spits on
Sasori's Poison
Kamui
etc.
These are incomparable. They don't work by raw power or speed or whatever. Almost all of them are one-shot techniques that are borderline broken and can't be handled in a normal way.
And a well done A+ write up of things nothing but respect for that. Seems a core issue is how strong AU Nagato ends up being as given the circumstances he'd likely be a story breaker regardless of what tier we go with (Outside of God-Verse at End of War Arc+). But that depends on how true we stick to Edo Nagato's power + reasonable projection buffs on an alive Nagato vs. if we decide to scale back from that.
And a well done A+ write up of things nothing but respect for that. Seems a core issue is how strong AU Nagato ends up being as given the circumstances he'd likely be a story breaker regardless of what tier we go with (Outside of God-Verse at End of War Arc+). But that depends on how true we stick to Edo Madara's power + reasonable projection buffs on an alive Nagato vs. if we decide to scale back from that.
Honestly, by himself, he's not a story breaker. Given the number of characters we have in our cast, we certainly have the power to take him down in the end-game. Unlike in canon we aren't banking on Naruto or Sasuke or alternatively the 5 Kage.
We've got like...20 main Ocs, all of whom plan to reach Kage level at minimum?
What I'm mostly saying is this is the guy that defines the power ceiling and if we're going to say Damos, Orochimaru, Haiahu, whoever else is this level of threat, then we need to all be fully aware of that.
The follow-up point is also related to that because we have so many OCs that should be competent, our villains can't waltz into attacks on villages all willy-nilly.
The villain attacks that have succeeded in AU (Damos and Orochimaru's Second Invasion), have succeeded not just because the villains were strong, though that was a fair part of it, but because the villages were restricted to sending out 1-2 people and all the other Jonin turned into a peanut gallery.
This has the potential to make villages look really bad in the future where a far weaker group (e.g. Nadeshiko) repels an equivalent threat by virtue of actually mobilizing more than 2 shinobi.
Edit:
Also, fodder characters, we need to talk about that too. Personally, I treat the rank as equivalent to the strength. Note my two factions, Hasa and the Hyuga, are very strict meritocracies. You don't get promoted if you don't have the strength to back it up.
When you have people like Iruka or Mizuki representing Chunin Rank and then getting absolutely curb-stomped by academy students then you completely undermine any sense of respect felt towards the rank.
This is why Anbu get fodderized.
You guys will have to decide what adjustments you want to make, if any, in your respective villages.
What I'm mostly saying is this is the guy that defines the power ceiling and if we're going to say Damos, Orochimaru, Haiahu, whoever else is this level of threat, then we need to all be fully aware of that.
We should also probably determine where these three stand in comparison to Nagato. If Nagato is supposed to be our main villain, then he needs to be at least a bit stronger than these ones. Personally, I'd prefer raising the bar, if we must, over nerfing some of these villains due to the reason stated by Kyuu. Nerfing Damos also inadvertently makes Shukaku look more shit than he already does which I don't think we want to do.
Honestly, by himself, he's not a story breaker. Given the number of characters we have in our cast, we certainly have the power to take him down in the end-game. Unlike in canon we aren't banking on Naruto or Sasuke or alternatively the 5 Kage.
We've got like...20 main Ocs, all of whom plan to reach Kage level at minimum?
If we have this many strong, competent, OCs on the good side, then even Nagato being as powerful as he is still can be overwhelmed by just numbers alone. Anything less than Nagato at full potential and he'll probably fall behind villains like Damos or Orochimaru tbh.
If we have this many strong, competent, OCs on the good side, then even Nagato being as powerful as he is still can be overwhelmed by just numbers alone. Anything less than Nagato at full potential and he'll probably fall behind villains like Damos or Orochimaru tbh.
We should also probably determine where these three stand in comparison to Nagato. If Nagato is supposed to be our main villain, then he needs to be at least a bit stronger than these ones. Personally, I'd prefer raising the bar, if we must, over nerfing some of these villains due to the reason stated by Kyuu. Nerfing Damos also inadvertently makes Shukaku look more shit than he already does which I don't think we want to do.
Even excluding the current top tiers, who all don’t really have a reason to fight him funnily enough, assuming all the other characters ganged up on him, Nagato would likely still be getting clapped around. If anything, there’d have to be a reason why they don’t do that.
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